# Can verbs be removed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Adventure/Lucasfilm Games\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556 "2017-05-16T10:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/141 "2017-06-18T23:04:04Z")
> [@khan](#): > > I don’t typically walk up to people and hand them something without speaking to them first. Typically I show the object to the person and ask him/her/it _after_ that: “Would you like to take this?”. Especially if I have a chainsaw. 😉 (But here we are in the different world of a game with a slightly different logic.) > [@khan](#): > > It’s also the most pointless, because an object can be described when it’s picked up the first time or, … What if the player pauses the game for one, two days. If he needs to see the description again, he has to drop the item and pick it up again. > [@khan](#): > > … as is the case with many hotspots, it can just default to Look At behavior With this behavior you can’t let a character describe his personal thoughts about the object. So you can’t include hints in this way. > [@khan](#): > > If it’s an object that can be pushed or pulled, do a Look At on first click, and then following clicks exhibit the Push and Pull behavior. But then you are forced to see the description of the object every time you try to push or pull. This could be annoying. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@khan](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/khan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/142 "2017-06-18T23:26:41Z")
> [@Someone](#): > > What if the player pauses the game for one, two days. If he needs to see the description again, he has to drop the item and pick it up again. There can be a cooldown. If you don’t look at an object for _x_ amount of time, it gives its description again. Or every three clicks. Or if you need to see the description immediately, combine it with a magnifying glass. That’s a lot better than _always_ using it and only slightly inconvenient. None of this is ideal, but it answers the original question of, “Do you think that verbs can be removed without breaking the game experience in a significant way?” > [@Someone](#): > > With this behavior you can’t let a character describe his personal thoughts about the object. So you can’t include hints in this way. I’m not sure what you mean. Any objects that can’t be picked up, pulled, pushed, opened, closed, etc. would just be described. All you’re going to lose is, “I don’t want to pick that up.” and “I don’t want to push that.” etc. > [@Someone](#): > > But then you are forced to see the description of the object every time you try to push or pull. This could be annoying. 🙂 Not every time. Only when the player is obviously struggling with the puzzle. Many adventure games already do this. I think there was a moment when TWP even did it. ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/143 "2017-06-18T23:34:06Z")
> [@khan](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. Any objects that can’t be picked up, pulled, pushed, opened, closed, etc. would just be described. All you’re going to lose is, “I don’t want to pick that up.” and “I don’t want to push that.” etc. If you move the mouse over an object, the game describes the object under the cursor, like “An empty bottle”. With the “look at” verb you can click on the object. Then the hero - for example Ray - could say something more, like: “An empty bottle. It’s garbage.” So Ray gives some additional informations - in this case that the bottle is garbage and therefore useless. So with a “look at” verb you could give the player much more informations about an object. And implicitly some more informations about the characters. ---
**Author:** ![khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@khan](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/khan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/144 "2017-06-18T23:47:31Z")
I don’t think we’re understanding each other. You don’t lose any of that by getting rid of the Look At verb. You get to keep it by using context. For example, compute the distance a character is from an object and if they’re far away they describe it. If they’re nearby, they pick it up. If an object can’t be picked up, then just describe it. If it’s an object that can be pulled, describe it and then pull it. If the player leaves the scene and returns, describe the object again otherwise let them keep pulling it. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/145 "2017-06-19T00:03:09Z")
> [@khan](#): > > > [@Someone](#): > > > > Why should I first talk to a person to give him/her/it an object? > > It’s funny you should ask that, because I was thinking the opposite. I don’t typically walk up to people and hand them something without speaking to them first. Especially if it’s a dangerous object like a chainsaw. I agree, in the real world you’d start talking first before shoving objects in people’s faces 🙂 > [@khan](#): > > It’s also the most pointless, because an object can be described when it’s picked up the first time or, as is the case with many hotspots, it can just default to Look At behavior (e.g. The action figures in Delores’ room.) If it’s an object that can be pushed or pulled, do a Look At on first click, and then following clicks exhibit the Push and Pull behavior. If the player pushes or pulls without solving the puzzle in x amount of clicks, then print another description This sounds frustrating. I’d prefer a simple single-verb interface (without ‘Look At’) over such complex and to players seemingly incoherent behaviour. I still prefer having an additional ‘Look At’ verb to at least one general ‘Use’. I think it’s a must for these type of dialog-heavy adventure games like TWP. It may be still OK for other games which are more about art and exploration, like Samorost. ---
**Author:** ![khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@khan](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/khan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/146 "2017-06-19T00:32:34Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > This sounds frustrating. I’d prefer a simple single-verb interface (without ‘Look At’) over such complex and to players seemingly incoherent behaviour. It worked well in Machinarium: if you’re far away, show the Walk To cursor. If you’re nearby, show the Pick Up/Use cursor. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/147 "2017-06-19T00:46:05Z")
When I, the player, want to hear the description again it’s frustrating when I have to click multiple times (x amount of clicks) or even worse have to wait some unspecified amount of time before it comes again. I want to hear it NOW. > [@khan](#): > > It worked well in Machinarium: if you’re far away, show the Walk To cursor. If you’re nearby, show the Pick Up/Use cursor. This sounds fine. But I don’t remember ‘Look At’ functionality here. ---
**Author:** ![Guga](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/guga/32/14476_2.png) [@Guga](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Guga)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/148 "2017-06-19T04:48:56Z")
I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. I mean… it’s not just a puzzle game where the goal is to find the correct sequence of touches that make you win. You have no advantages in minimizing the number of choices, merging EVERYTHING into Use since “you can get the correct response from the context”, except that the player “loses less time” playing before advancing in the plot. But the best part about adventure games is **literally everything else that’s not bringing you forward**. All the “wrong” dialog choices, all the useless look-ats, using stuff in unintended ways, postponing the answer to a puzzle because you first want to know Verbs CAN be removed, but at expense of breadth and immersion. Take the “chainsaw and Sandy” example. Verbs allow _way_ more stuff, they lead to a wider world of opportunities - and jokes. If you remove verbs, you have to either completely disallow the “use chainsaw with Sandy” choice, which is quite a pity in my opinion, or find a “hack” that lets you give it, like “talking first”. Which, I admit, is what happens in real life, but this isn’t real life, it’s a videogame. ---
**Author:** ![seguso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/seguso/32/1232_2.png) [@seguso](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/seguso)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/149 "2017-06-19T05:32:15Z")
> [@RonGilbert](#): > > Starting up a dialog to GIVE TO is also a puzzle give-a-way. We did it a couple of times in TWP and I got bitched at by some people because it gave the puzzle away. I confess I was one of the bitches. In my defense, I can only say: “_I love too much_”. ---
**Author:** ![seguso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/seguso/32/1232_2.png) [@seguso](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/seguso)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/150 "2017-06-19T05:36:35Z")
> [@khan](#): > > a puzzle might require you to Pull the cord to a lawnmower rather than simply just Use the lawnmower. But you could simplify the puzzle by having the player just Use the cord Ok, but pull the cord is not a puzzle in the first place. 🙂 It’s the obvious usage of a cord, and puzzles can never be obvious usages. So, wrong example. To argue that you can remove the “push” verb, you have to find an example of a puzzle where 1) you have to push an object; 2) pushing that object makes total sense 3) pushing that object is not the most obvious action on that object. and then you have to explain how, without verbs, (i.e. with just one verb, “interact”) we would not giveaway that puzzle. Or, (B) alternatively, how you can redesign that puzzle so that it’s not a giveaway. Or (C) argue that is not a good puzzle and not worth keeping. Examples: 1. push wardrobe (to find a safe hidden behind it). the most obvious usage for the wardrobe is “open”, but push still makes sense on it. How do you redesign this without verbs? Can you convince us that you can _always_ redesign such puzzles to work with a single “interact” verb? 2. hide inside wardrobe. Again, the most obvious usage is “open”, but “hide inside” makes sense. 3. push person (while she is on the ledge). Most obvious usage is “talk to”, but “push” makes sense. 4. walk through window. The most obvious usage is “open”, but “walk through” makes sense. (Broken Sword gives this puzzles away) 5. shake tree (to make a coconut fall down). the most obvious usage is “climb” or “cut”, but “shake” makes sense. Now, for all of these puzzles, (which BTW can be expressed perfectly with the cruise-for-a-corpse ui) you’d need to either explain how they can be redesigned (in a mechanical way that can be applied to all similar puzzles), or why they are not good puzzles and the world is a better place without them 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guga](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/guga/32/14476_2.png) [@Guga](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Guga)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/151 "2017-06-19T06:06:13Z")
> [@seguso](#): > > 1. walk through window. The most obvious usage is “open”, but “walk through” makes sense. That’s (spoiler alert! 😛 ) **exactly** what I did in my game. I couldn’t have done it without providing (always) the four interactions (use, pick up, look at and walk to). That’s why I’m quite a verbs fan. I mean, if it weren’t a pain in the arse to program, a text input interface like Sierra would be the best one. Potentially endless possibilities. Yet, I’d probably play Dungeons And Dragons with another human if I wanted to have an intelligent response to whatever I decide to do in the game. So, 9 verbs should be enough. ---
**Author:** ![ZakPhoenixMcKracken](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/zakphoenixmckracken/32/41_2.png) [@ZakPhoenixMcKracken](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/ZakPhoenixMcKracken)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 6:56am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/152 "2017-06-19T06:56:11Z")
> [@Guga](#): > > That’s (spoiler alert! 😛 ) exactly what I did in my game. I couldn’t have done it without providing (always) the four interactions (use, pick up, look at and walk to). That’s why I’m quite a verbs fan. Yes. When I was facing the window, I was a bit … puzzled… but then I remembered the descriptions in your “death list”, and I figured out I had to walk through the window in order to die properly. I like your adventure game, where you MUST die in order to proceed… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/153 "2017-06-19T11:44:30Z")
> [@khan](#): > > You don’t lose any of that by getting rid of the Look At verb. You get to keep it by using context. For example, compute the distance a character is from an object and if they’re far away they describe it. If they’re nearby, they pick it up. With this approach you a) solve puzzles for the player and b) frustrate him because he has to find out what happens in which situations. So from my perspective it isn’t a good alternative to the verb interface. But of course It is a complete different UI that could be suited for adventure games … > [@khan](#): > > It worked well in Machinarium: if you’re far away, show the Walk To cursor. If you’re nearby, show the Pick Up/Use cursor. … like Machinarium. But in Machionarium there is no text at all. The characters don’t speak. Instead they give you only hints in icon form. So in this case your suggestion work. But in an adventure like TWP it would be frustrating. (This discussion is another example why the UI design goes hand in hand with the puzzle and game design…) ---
**Author:** ![khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@khan](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/khan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/154 "2017-06-19T18:21:53Z")
> [@seguso](#): > > Ok, but pull the cord is not a puzzle in the first place. 🙂 It’s the obvious usage of a cord, and puzzles can never be obvious usages. So, wrong example. You mean like pushing and pulling a trampoline? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. > [@seguso](#): > > To argue that you can remove the “push” verb, you have to find an example of a puzzle where 1) you have to push an object; 2) pushing that object makes total sense 3) pushing that object is not the most obvious action on that object. You mean like a trampoline? > [@seguso](#): > > and then you have to explain how, without verbs, (i.e. with just one verb, “interact”) we would not giveaway that puzzle. Or, (B) alternatively, how you can redesign that puzzle so that it’s not a giveaway. Or (C) argue that is not a good puzzle and not worth keeping. It’s not a give away because you don’t know what to do after you’ve pushed or pulled the trampoline. There’s two more steps to the puzzle. > [@seguso](#): > > to either explain how they can be redesigned (in a mechanical way that can be applied to all similar puzzles) I’ve already done that. If that was insufficient for you, then that’s not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Caven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Caven](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Caven)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/155 "2017-06-19T21:41:19Z")
> [@khan](#): > > > [@Someone](#): > > > > Why should I first talk to a person to give him/her/it an object? > > It’s funny you should ask that, because I was thinking the opposite. I don’t typically walk up to people and hand them something without speaking to them first. Especially if it’s a dangerous object like a chainsaw. No, but are you in the habit of talking to someone about some random topic and then suddenly out of the blue handing them something completely unrelated to the topic? There will inherently be dialogue related to the item. (“Would you like this cookie?”) Adventure games frequently trigger an automatic “talk to self/talk to player” line when trying to give an item to an invalid recipient. Just trigger an automatic “talk to recipient” line that’s relevant to the item being given. It’s something the existing inventory system is already capable of doing for the most part, and it doesn’t require either adding a large number of “I want to give…” lines to dialogue trees, or spoiling puzzles by making it obvious that some items are significant to the character. ---
**Author:** ![Caven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Caven](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Caven)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/156 "2017-06-19T22:08:32Z")
> [@seguso](#): > > with a book, it’s easy to go back and reread something, and then go forward again. You don’t need to reread everything to get back to your bookmark. > > with games, it’s not as simple. if you restore an old savegame, and change something, the future changes. So you need to replay everything, while instead you only want to see _the difference_. You only want the part of the future that changed with your action in the past. So, I think the game should somehow highlight the changes you made to the future, and present all the rest greyed-out. or something like that. it could even repeat all your actions automatically, until it meets an action that can’t be performed because the future has changed. What should happen instead is that the consequences of the changes should happen sooner, rather than later. If doing something completely different still results in hours of identical gameplay before showing the difference in outcome, the game is probably doing something wrong. That’s not to say that the alternate events cannot take a long time to completely unfold, but those changes should be revealed progressively during gameplay–not completely hidden until some point long after the catalyst occurred. ---
**Author:** ![seguso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/seguso/32/1232_2.png) [@seguso](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/seguso)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/157 "2017-06-20T09:34:44Z")
> [@khan](#): > > You mean like a trampoline? Sorry, I was only commenting on the cord. About the trampoline: the primary usage is “jump on”, but “push” makes sense. so, yes, I think it’a good example. You say that without verbs, you don’t giveaway the trampoline puzzle. But I don’t completely understand how you would implement it without verbs? When you click the trampoline, what happens? does the character push or jump? ---
**Author:** ![MassAff3ct](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/massaff3ct/32/2793_2.png) [@MassAff3ct](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/MassAff3ct)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556/158 "2017-08-28T04:17:08Z")
@seguso Kinda a grammatical loophole but you can describe the character by their actions. Taker, pusher, maker winner etc. This would unconventionally modify the verb making it a noun. > **[Deverbal noun](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deverbal_noun)** > > Deverbal nouns are nouns that are derived from verbs or verb phrases, but that behave grammatically purely as nouns, not as verbs. They are distinct from verbal noun types such as gerunds and infinitives, which behave like verbs within their phrase (although that verb phrase is then used as a noun phrase within the larger sentence). The formation of deverbal nouns is one of the types of nominalization (noun formation). Examples of deverbal nouns in English include organization (derived from the v... [Previous page](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/can-verbs-be-removed/556.md?page=7)