# Patreon - new fee structure **URL:** \ **Category:** Off-topic\ **Created:** [December 11, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136 "2017-12-11T02:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![seguso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/seguso/32/1232_2.png) [@seguso](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/seguso)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/42 "2017-12-12T00:23:51Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > The one winning here is the payment provider, the ones losing are the patrons supporting multiple creators, having to pay multiple transactions per month (per creator or per post). but do patrons on net lose? ie, could the loss for patrons supporting multiple creators be offset by a gain for patrons supporting a single creator? ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/43 "2017-12-12T00:32:56Z")
> [@LowLevel](#): > > if I do nothing, I will be automatically charged more after the 18th of December. Yes. This is another possible problem: Supporters not reading their mail could be unhappy about being charged more all of a sudden. But it’s their fault for not reading their email 🙂 And it’s OK (in my eyes) because 1. I can reduce my pledge 2. I want to support the creator, so a little bit more shouldn’t be bad. But I do not support paying multiple transaction fees to someone like PayPal just for fun. > [@seguso](#): > > could the loss for patrons supporting multiple creators be offset by a gain for patrons supporting a single creator? Well, those are different people. If you only want to support some specific guy those new fees doesn’t change much and Patreon may be OK for you. I certainly won’t give them their 5% cut anymore so they can punish me for supporting multiple creators. ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/44 "2017-12-12T00:33:01Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > The one winning here is the payment provider …assuming that A) all those multiple $0.35 go to the payment provider and B) that the payment provider will get more money. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/45 "2017-12-12T00:36:22Z")
> [@LowLevel](#): > > …assuming that A) all those multiple $0.35 go to the payment provider and B) that the payment provider will get more money. There are multiple transactions. They need to be paid. Typical PayPal fees in US are 2.9% + $0.30. Someone has to pay them no matter what (note that Patreon could have a bulk rate! still there are other fees like currency conversion which need to be compensated using those fees). Percentage fees like 2.9% also aren’t the problem, they are the same as before and don’t depend on the number of transactions. ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/46 "2017-12-12T00:51:41Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > note that Patreon could have a bulk rate That’s the point. $0.35 is what supporters pay _to Patreon_, not necessarily what Patreon pays to PayPal. There is no way for us to know how much money PayPal will get, so we can’t conclude that PayPal will benefit from the new system. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/47 "2017-12-12T01:09:05Z")
> [@LowLevel](#): > > That’s the point. No it’s not. I don’t care if Patreon or PayPal makes more profit from it. It doesn’t benefit me, it doesn’t benefit the creator, I don’t see a reason to pay it so I won’t. > [@LowLevel](#): > > There is no way for us to know how much money PayPal will get OK. > [@LowLevel](#): > > so we can’t conclude that PayPal will benefit from the new system Well I do conclude this exact thing. A lot more transaction means more money to them. If they have agreed on a bulk rate which gets them less money with all those transactions then PayPal is really bad at negotiations and maybe should leave their money business behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/48 "2017-12-13T20:31:21Z")
> Feedback form regarding Patreon fees: [https://jamiec1.typeform.com/to/gvucuX](https://jamiec1.typeform.com/to/gvucuX) (or find the same link on their [blog](https://blog.patreon.com/not-rolling-out-fees-change/)) ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/49 "2017-12-13T20:48:45Z")
I’m glad that they decided to fix the issues interacting more with the community in the future. There will be changes anyway but at least it seems that they will ask the opinion of creators and supporters _before_ deploying big changes. ---
**Author:** ![RonGilbert](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/rongilbert/32/7_2.png) [@RonGilbert](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/RonGilbert)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/50 "2017-12-13T20:49:13Z")
Oh man… that url to the feedback form instills nothing but confidence. Why isn’t it a Patreon url? These are the kind of links we’re told never to click on. ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/51 "2017-12-13T20:50:27Z")
Click with confidence. It’s just a porn website. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/52 "2017-12-13T21:05:37Z")
> [@RonGilbert](#): > > These are the kind of links we’re told never to click on. I posted an alternate solution 🙂 > [@LowLevel](#): > > There will be changes anyway but at least it seems that they will ask the opinion of creators and supporters before deploying big changes. I’m just not sure how to fix most of the problems they wanted address in the first place without having multiple transactions. But as long it stays like it was (and still is) I’m happy. ---
**Author:** ![RonGilbert](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/rongilbert/32/7_2.png) [@RonGilbert](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/RonGilbert)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/53 "2017-12-13T22:10:14Z")
This does a good job of going into why they did the changes… > **[Patreon's Fee Problem and Fixing It With a UI Solution - Sir TapTap](https://sirtaptap.com/articles/finer-points/ui-change-could-have-prevented-patreon-fee-change-debacle/)** > > Patreon almost made a big mistake. Here's a set of simple UI changes that could have empowered users instead of changing their entire financial system. ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/54 "2017-12-13T23:45:41Z")
From the article: > Pledges are promises, when they should be preorders. With a preorder, you don’t still get the product if you cancel the payment. You say “I’ll pay”, but if you don’t pay, you don’t play. That is perhaps the most absolute basic aspect of a transaction. I disagree with this. Patreon is not a shop. For example I don’t ask anything in exchange for my pledge, because I want to _donate_ money, not buying stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/55 "2017-12-14T00:02:37Z")
> [@RonGilbert](#): > > This does a good job of going into why they did the changes… > > [https://sirtaptap.com/2017/12/ui-change-could-have-prevented-patreon-fee-change-debacle/](https://sirtaptap.com/2017/12/ui-change-could-have-prevented-patreon-fee-change-debacle/) It describes the fee issues well but it only talks about the patron side, mostly about the charge-up/double-charge problem. But Patreon did try to make it better for **creators** with 1. having predictable pledges (-5%, that’s it) and 2. they get money immediately when they release a post (in case of per-post pledges). > [@LowLevel](#): > > Patreon is not a shop. For example I don’t ask anything in exchange for my pledge, because I want to _donate_ money, not buying stuff. Those reward tiers are promises (which he is talking about). Now I wonder: can you donate without actually selecting a tier (like on Kickstarter) or is the tier always automatic? ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136/56 "2017-12-14T06:12:54Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > Now I wonder: can you donate without actually selecting a tier (like on Kickstarter) or is the tier always automatic? It works like Kickstarter, even if the interface to get the same result is different. You can give any arbitrary amount of money and you can choose between getting any of the rewards that that sum of money gives access to or getting no reward at all. [Previous page](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/patreon-new-fee-structure/2136.md?page=2)