# TWP: is there something wrong with the German verb interface? **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424 "2017-08-15T06:32:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/61 "2017-08-16T22:02:35Z")
> [@LowLevel](#): > > In the screenshots that I’m observing on Google Images, it uses the infinitive form. Interesting. Then why are the verbs in the Italian version in the imperative form? As @ZakPhoenixMcKracken wrote, the italian words in the infinitive form aren’t too long for the verb slots … ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/62 "2017-08-16T22:11:33Z")
So, to sum it up the used forms: German version: indicative or subjunctive I Italian version: imperative Spanish version: infinitive I don’t know what to think about it. 😄 > [@Someone](#): > > As @ZakPhoenixMcKracken wrote, the italian words in the infinitive form aren’t too long for the verb slots … Hmm… I can’t find his comment about this. Even if the infinitive form can fit in the slots, the imperative form creates shorter words that in my opinion are aesthetically more pleasing and make more sense (assuming that the player is giving commands to the characters). ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/63 "2017-08-16T22:13:57Z")
> [@LowLevel](#): > > Hmm… I can’t find his comment about this. > [@TWP: is there something wrong with the German verb interface?](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/56): > > Even in italian, verbs are in imperative form. Prendi, apri, chiudi… (pick up, open, close) If it were in indicative form, it was Prendo, apro, chiudo Io prendo la motosega = I pick up the chainsaw Prendi la motosega = pick up the chainsaw Only in a revision of Monkey Island, verbs were in infinite form, but it was odd. > [@LowLevel](#): > > Even if the infinitive form can fit in the slots, the imperative form creates shorter words that in my opinion are aesthetically more pleasing and make more sense (assuming that the player is giving commands to the characters). Yup 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/64 "2017-08-16T22:25:15Z")
He wasn’t talking about the infinitive form but only about the indicative and the imperative forms. In Italian the infinitive form always adds a few characters to the word: Take: “Raccogli” (imperative or indicative (theoretically)) “Raccogliere” (infinitive) ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/65 "2017-08-16T22:27:29Z")
Argh, yes, sorry. It’s too late in Germany (after midnight) - I’m losing my concentration… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/66 "2017-08-17T03:59:47Z")
> [@rarog4k](#): > > You know the German dub of “Airplane!” aka “Die unglaubliche Reise in einem verrückten Flugzeug”? The two black guys speak some kind of ghetto slang in English. In German the dub gave them hardcore Bavarian accent. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkI0cH\_rK4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkI0cH_rK4) Now that was strange 😃 Also the German subtitles are pretty inaccurate, but maybe they were based on the English script? ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/67 "2017-08-17T04:02:19Z")
> [@Someone](#): > > > [@milanfahrnholz](#): > > > > Are you sure he wrote this on the blog … > > [https://blog.thimbleweedpark.com/release\_date](https://blog.thimbleweedpark.com/release_date) > > Search for the word “Aloha” to jump to his corresponding post. His post is written in German. Btw., you can directly navigate to a specific comment by adding its ID like that: [https://blog.thimbleweedpark.com/release\_date#58b5a3dc7dce7ca324629367](https://blog.thimbleweedpark.com/release_date#58b5a3dc7dce7ca324629367) ---
**Author:** ![BorisFromGermany](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/borisfromgermany/32/1896_2.png) [@BorisFromGermany](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/BorisFromGermany)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/68 "2017-08-17T07:58:17Z")
Good morning from Germany. This is Boris and Ron has sent me here to solve a mystery. My official reason for using different verbs in the UI is this: **Franklin** Due to the fact that Franklin has commands that end with the “-e” form because they have NO object (Stöhne, Verzage…) I wanted to keep ALL verbs in that form on the command line. And because Franklins verbs always were a secret pre-launch, I couldn’t tell this story when the first German screenshots hit the web and the discussion started. The German grammar is broken in Point and Click adventures games since Maniac Mansion (actually since Murder on the Mississippi, but I don’t want to get super picky about that). Give A to B needs to be Gib B das A in German. Anything else is wrong and hurts my eyes - but I did not dare to rewrite the code for that in Monkey Island (I messed enough with it already to fix some small grammar issues). So discussing whether it needs to be “Nehme” or “Nimm” for _grammar_ reasons seems to be the wrong discussion for me. That leaves the “historical” value of having the same verbs as old games. I have no beef with that. My suggestion to Ron for a patch is: Change the **retro** verbs into MI-style (Nimm, Gib) but keep the standard verb line as shipped. So: It’s “Nehme” and not “Nimm” because it is “Stöhne” and not “Stöhn” for Franklin. I would keep it that way, but if public demands a change, so be it. Changing the Retro verbs seems to be like a great compromise, but that is a personal opinion. Thank you all for your support of the game - whether it is Nehme or Nimm, Boris ---
**Author:** ![LowLevel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/lowlevel/32/48_2.png) [@LowLevel](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/LowLevel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:08am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/69 "2017-08-17T08:08:15Z")
Thanks a lot for your explanation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:14am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/70 "2017-08-17T09:14:21Z")
First of all: Thanks for your explanation. As I supposed, It was easier than I thought. 🙂 > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > The German grammar is broken in Point and Click adventures games since Maniac Mansion … I don’t think that this is a problem: It’s obvious that you create the whole sentence from a range/palette of different parts and thus they won’t fit (grammatically) together. It’s more important that all other sentences are correct. But of course, it would be nice, if the game could build a correct German sentence. 🙂 > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > Give A to B needs to be Gib B das A in German. My knowledge about the English language is very incomplete (= horrible), but isn’t that true for the English version too? Is “Give chainsaw to Ray” grammatically correct (in the sense of a perfect sentence)? > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > So: It’s “Nehme” and not “Nimm” because it is “Stöhne” and not “Stöhn” for Franklin. The problem here is, that you mix different forms. This confuses most players, because they won’t do this in other situations/real life. 🙂 > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > My suggestion to Ron for a patch is: Change the retro verbs into MI-style (Nimm, Gib) but keep the standard verb line as shipped. Hm… wouldn’t that even be more confusing? > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > I would keep it that way, but if public demands a change, so be it. I wouldn’t say that the public _demands_ a change. It’s just that most people are confused and don’t get it, why you have chosen the “-e” form. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZakPhoenixMcKracken](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/zakphoenixmckracken/32/41_2.png) [@ZakPhoenixMcKracken](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/ZakPhoenixMcKracken)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/71 "2017-08-17T09:22:08Z")
> [@Someone](#): > > My knowledge about the English language is very incomplete (= horrible), but isn’t that true for the English version too? Is “Give chainsaw to Ray” grammatically correct (in the sense of a perfect sentence)? I’m the last in the world who can speak for Germans, but if I have understood its grammar, “Give chainsaw to Ray” in German, sounds like “Given Ray the chainsaw”, that is the destination person should be first. ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:42am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/72 "2017-08-17T09:42:03Z")
> [@ZakPhoenixMcKracken](#): > > I’m the last in the world who can speak for Germans, but if I have understood its grammar, “Give chainsaw to Ray” in German, sounds like “Given Ray the chainsaw”, that is the destination person should be first. Yes, that’s right, in most cases we name the destination person first: “Gib Ray die Kettensäge” = “Give Ray the chainsaw” (word by word translation). But: “Gib die Kettensäge an Ray.” = “Give the chainsaw to Ray.” is also valid German. (It’s a short form of “Delores, gib bitte deine Kettensäge an Ray weiter.” = “Delores, please hand over your chainsaw to Ray.”) ---
**Author:** ![BorisFromGermany](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/borisfromgermany/32/1896_2.png) [@BorisFromGermany](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/BorisFromGermany)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 10:04am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/73 "2017-08-17T10:04:31Z")
All examples in [http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/geben](http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/geben) name the recipient first. On the other hand, [http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/give\_1](http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/give_1) in the first example has both forms (Give B the A or Give A to B) as valid examples. And outside of adventure games, “Gebe A an B” is just nowhere to be found. But I digress. ---
**Author:** ![BorisFromGermany](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/borisfromgermany/32/1896_2.png) [@BorisFromGermany](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/BorisFromGermany)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 10:07am UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/74 "2017-08-17T10:07:03Z")
The game builds correct sentences in this way: When you click “Nehme” “Object”, TP writes “Nimm (der/die/das) Object” in the sentence line! Plus, all objects have gender (different in every language) and this is used to build correct sentences that are MORE than just verb/object/subject strings. ---
**Author:** ![rarog4k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/rarog4k/32/1359_2.png) [@rarog4k](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/rarog4k)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/75 "2017-08-17T12:36:49Z")
> [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > > [@rarog4k](#): > > > > You know the German dub of “Airplane!” aka “Die unglaubliche Reise in einem verrückten Flugzeug”? The two black guys speak some kind of ghetto slang in English. In German the dub gave them hardcore Bavarian accent. > > > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkI0cH\_rK4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkI0cH_rK4) > > Now that was strange 😃 > Also the German subtitles are pretty inaccurate, but maybe they were based on the English script? Indeed, you can see that those are typical DVD subtitles (just image overlay) and those are always translated independently of the actual dub from English. They NEVER 100% fit the spoken words even in better productions. Here they don’t fit at all of course. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![rarog4k](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/rarog4k/32/1359_2.png) [@rarog4k](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/rarog4k)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/76 "2017-08-17T12:46:15Z")
> [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > The German grammar is broken in Point and Click adventures games since Maniac Mansion (actually since Murder on the Mississippi, but I don’t want to get super picky about that). Give A to B needs to be Gib B das A in German. Reading this I’m now happy, that early Leasure Suite Larry games weren’t translated to German. Because having the parser recognise what you type in could have been quite tricky for any translation. Though the valid sentences were quite simple at that time. > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > So: It’s “Nehme” and not “Nimm” because it is “Stöhne” and not “Stöhn” for Franklin. I wouldn’t have had any problem with “Stöhn”, as 1) this is valid imperative form and 2) it reminds me of the German Mad Magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Nor\_Treblig](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/nor_treblig/32/216_2.png) [@Nor\_Treblig](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Nor_Treblig)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/77 "2017-08-17T14:14:43Z")
Thanks, that explains a lot! > [@BorisFromGermany](#): > > And because Franklins verbs always were a secret pre-launch Yep, I’ve noticed that back then that there weren’t any screenshots with Franklin’s UI 🙂 * * * I can understand people being curious about this and it’s nice to now have a definitive answer, but I’m surprised that some were actually bothered about it (see Steam discussion). Maybe my love for the German language just isn’t developed enough 🙂 Oh and of course I’d keep it that way, no change needed. ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/78 "2017-08-17T14:25:30Z")
> [@rarog4k](#): > > Because having the parser recognise what you type in could have been quite tricky for any translation. Infocom worked on a German version of his parser. And it’s not that difficult to create a proper parser. 🙂 But looking at the quality of the Sierra parser: Yes, I’m happy too that these games are only in English. 😉 > [@rarog4k](#): > > I wouldn’t have had any problem with “Stöhn”, as 1) this is valid imperative form and 2) it reminds me of the German Mad Magazine. Same here. 🙂 I haven’t read the Mad magazine, but it was used in several other comic books. > [@Nor\_Treblig](#): > > Oh and of course I’d keep it that way, no change needed. I still don’t like the verbs, but I would agree with @Nor_Treblig: You don’t have to change it. The only concern I have are the other/new players who don’t understand the reason - especially if we look at the casual mobile players … ---
**Author:** ![RonGilbert](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forums.thimbleweedpark.com/rongilbert/32/7_2.png) [@RonGilbert](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/RonGilbert)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/79 "2017-08-17T17:33:32Z")
Even the English is wrong. No one would ever say “Open Door”, we would say “Open the Door”. Nor would we say “Give Chainsaw to Ray”, we’d say “Give Ray the Chainsaw” or “Give the Chainsaw to Ray”. Even the english is a cribbed hack. It’s not like we did it perfectly, then skimped on the translations. Maybe Americans are just more forgiving of their language being butchered in the pursuit of entertainment. The problem with constructing sentences is it starts to get very complex if I can select “Give”, then “Ray” and then “Chainsaw”. It’s a lot easier if everything follows a pattern. If this verb style interface had continued to be popular, maybe it would have advanced into a very natural and responsive sentence generator, moving verbs and nouns around to the correct place as you created sentences (without confusing the player in the process). ---
**Author:** ![Someone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Someone](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/u/Someone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424/80 "2017-08-17T17:48:09Z")
> [@RonGilbert](#): > > Maybe Americans are just more forgiving of their language being butchered in the pursuit of entertainment. I can’t speak for all Germans, but we are similar. 🙂 (You won’t believe what the kids are doing with the language, especially if a dialect is involved 😉 ) As I wrote above, it doesn’t matter, if the sentence line uses a wrong grammar: The player creates the sentence by clicking on different words. So it’s natural that they won’t fit (grammatically) together. Or in other words: They don’t have to fit together. 🙂 We all grew up with Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island and we still don’t say “Razor, open door with yellow key” in real life. 😉 So as a developer you don’t have to strive for the grammatically perfect sentence line. More important are the other texts. > [@RonGilbert](#): > > If this verb style interface had continued to be popular, maybe it would have advanced into a very natural and responsive sentence generator, moving verbs and nouns around to the correct place as you created sentences (without confusing the player in the process). If you/someone is interested in developing such a system, feel free to contact me. [Previous page](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/twp-is-there-something-wrong-with-the-german-verb-interface/1424.md?page=5)