How many verbs are perfect?

That’s true. The advantage is that it streamlines the game, because you find the correct verb earlier than you would if all verbs were visible throughout the game. Hence, the developers don’t necessarily reduce their freedom in designing puzzles when they reduce the number of options for the player.
Deponia Doomsday, which I mentioned above, did take advantage of this method, too. Though, when I play such a game, it feels arbitrary that you cannot look at some items, for example. I admit that the nine-verbs interface has such limits as well, as you often receive universal responses when you try different verbs, but I think that it’s just more fun for the player to have seemingly all freedoms. And, it offers the developers more opportunities for inserting a few additional jokes in the game, or for making the virtual world feel more complex than it actually is.

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You mean that ∗beep∗face who made a great game but didn’t release a DRM-free version? :angry:

Not being able to even let my character look at items is really something I dislike in Adventure games.

I disagree :slight_smile:
It’s not clear from the current state, e.g. how would you open it again to put another item in the microwave? (based on a real puzzle :slightly_smiling_face:)

Possible solution (like you have suggested with the trampoline) is to use different hotspots (door, control panel).
And it may work well with slightly complex devices/machines.

With more simple ones (e.g. trampoline) splitting it into multiple hotspots may not be such a good idea, another example being door + separate door handle/lock hotspot.
Especially hotspots in another hotspot may be easy overlooked by players I think.

But if you do multiple hotspots maybe it is better to clearly name them?
E.g. when you allow to move an object like a trampoline or a lever maybe name the hotspots e.g. “left side of lever” and “right side of lever”.
This makes manipulation with a move (pull/push) command much less confusing.
It may not look that pretty though…

Would this be a feasible way to implement move-puzzles?

Could be money reasons, because it´s only one person?

Thousands of reviews on Steam, mostly positive: It’s not like no one buys this game. He just doesn’t care enough to make a DRM-free build and upload it on itch.io.

itch.io is a mess. TWP isn’t on there either. If you’re on itch.io, you need to make your own Windows installer (Steam/GOG do this for you). Not rocket science, but it’s a hurdle. And you have to set up your store and make a bunch of images in formats very different from Steam. Puting a game on a store is a pain in the ass. Plus, you probably have to do a different build if you’re doing anything with Steam APIs (achievements). Now you’re managing 2 builds. And you have a new place to monitor comments and do support for.

Read this the section “Zero Friction for Developers” in here: http://www.fortressofdoors.com/so-you-want-to-compete-with-steam/ This is real and every developer I know hates it.

I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t care. He just doesn’t care about the same things you do.

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Have you ever looked more into the specific reasons why that is?

BTW: I was surpised to see physical copies of the game at a local store last week (with all the pixely glory on the cover no less!).

You can release digital content however you like. Just upload a ZIP file.
(but tell the people about fancy prerequisites like Visual C++ runtimes… :slightly_smiling_face:)

I understand. All those different platforms and stores are a pain in the ass. And selling on PC stores other than Steam may not be that lucrative.

Btw. I have read this article before and I’m wondering why you said itch.io is a mess, it got quite some praise there?

Is it?
Axiom Verge was initially released on 2015-03-31, that’s nearly three years ago.
As of now it was released an many different platforms: Windows, MaxOS, Linux, PS4, PS VIta, WiiU, Switch, Xbox One.

If he would really care about DRM-free software I think he would have found a way to release the game DRM-free until now. It doesn’t need fancy achievements etc., just don’t strip any essential stuff from the game.

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Specific reasons regarding Axiom Verge? Well, regarding one specific DRM-free shop I’ve actually just found something, there were some misunderstandings etc.:

Maybe we will get a GOG release at last.

Oh, a physical copy of Axiom Verge with pixel-art on the box sounds nice! (at first, but e.g. if it’s just a DVD with Steam key it defeats the purpose of a physical release for me unless it’s full of extras)

From the post you linked:

In terms of if or when Axiom Verge will ever come to GOG, we’re going to need to look into it. We have nothing against the platform and nothing against releasing a DRM-free version. It really comes down to the work required to bring it to the system and integrate it with Galaxy. I’m just the business half of the Axiom Verge team, and Tom Happ (the guy who made Axiom Verge entirely by himself) is the only one available to do the integration. We need to think about all the other things Tom could be doing - including working on his next game and taking care of his son - and decide how best to use his time. If I could wave a magic wand and have it out on GOG with Galaxy integration, we’d have done it already.

Sounds like I was right:

I think it was for a console version.

grafik

grafik

Furthermore in Maniac Mansion there was the “Fix” verb. At the end, it was an unused verb: Bernard used the Use verb to fix what he needed to fix.

@different platforms
Developing a game is more interesting than supporting different platforms but it’s part of the job (unless you outsource it) and it helps to increase sales. Offering a version for good selection of platforms (DRM free, Steam) is a good thing.

F.e. Gorogoa was available for iTunes(iOS), Steam(Win), GOG(Win), the AppStore(macOS) and Switch.

You don’t want to buy games for the AppStore because a) sometimes games (which still work) dissapear without a refund, b) the games are more expensive and there are less sales and c) you want to use a low number of stores you already like&use.

So, for Gorogoa macOS support is missing for at least Steam and GOG.

Some people prefer the Humble Store because they often offer both a DRM free and a Steam key (which btw. you don’t misuse but value as a backup if there show up problems on other platforms [low bandwith, errors with the specific build …]) or as a collection for a majority of the games. itch.io is a nice DRM free platform due to the games they offer and their flexible pricing (min+x).

You also could avoid DLCs (where it makes more sense), keep the versions number low and offer an additional option on the platforms which allows you to add money for the games, you would like to support beyond buying the initial price (this would allow a finer balancing than rebuying games from). A complete version still feels cleaner.

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I’m still deciding what to vote for. In theory I think fewer verbs is better, but as for which ones and how many, that takes a bit of thought.

One thing that struck me during my recent playthrough of Maniac Mansion was that some of the verbs were so specific that they gave me clues about upcoming puzzles and what I’d need to do to solve them. Such as the ‘fix’ verb everyone keeps referring to. As someone who hates spoilers and hints (unless I get mega stuck), that bothered me a bit.

The same with the way certain combinations of verbs and objects automatically add a ‘with’. In most cases if it doesn’t do that it means the item is probably useless, or at the least not very important.

I think for these reasons I’d like verbs to be fewer in number and less specific.

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12!
Because it has too be a multiple of 3 for arranging. 15 is a bit too much, 9 a bit too little.
Of course it doesn’t combine very well with an icon inventory. But that wasn’t the poll subject :slight_smile:

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Or “whip”, “punch”, “shoot” and “make sarcastic remark” The latter of course being too long, but I’d like the idea to have a verb to “think” and evoke some comments from the character (“talk to self”).

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@Someone
I’m sure if your put some effort into this, you could come up with something that feels less limited, makes more sense but doesn’t end in a sandbox like experience too. You can get around many limitations with the existing system and a suited design but you certainly could enhance the current situation if you think it all through, which no one seems to do.

I almost forgot about Leather Goddesses of Phobos, nice. Because it’s only partly a digital product, it also ages.

A nose, telepathy … could work as an integral part of the puzzles and game design already. Games don’t have to, but I think, its nice when they have something unique which also shows up in their interfaces.

Why do you feel free in the Broken Sword series?

I didn’t feel freedom in Broken Sword (some scenes were rather limiting) and Fate had the problem that its riddles weren’t really good. Broken Sword lives from its story and characters. Fate benefits from the exploration of different locations and being Indy but the puzzles weren’t clever and the interface wasn’t used to its potential.

I get your point about its you, who has to get the solution but the better an interface, the more suited the actions are, the better (potentially) could be the result and the game-/puzzle-design.

You have to wait until the first meal is cooked. Then the microwave makes “ping”. Another “use” would open the microwave. Before you can insert the egg you have to “use” the meal to remove it from the microwave). Now you can “use” the egg with the microwave. (From the developers point view it’s a simple state machine - and you can convert all puzzles in such a state machine if you like.)

Depends on how you set the hotspots and how big the objects are presented on the screen. If necessary you could switch the view and present the object in fullscreen. For example you can show a close up of the microwave (that makes it easier to push a specific button).

Depends on the puzzle. :slight_smile: (btw: Now we are trying to create a one-click interface - but we don’t like that? :wink: )

Yes, it was useless in MM - but maybe it wouldn’t be that useless in other games. For example in Zak McKracken or the Indy series.

But isn’t that true for “push”, “pull” and “give”? Beside that, there are other non-specific verbs a developer could chose. For example in Indy a “whip” verb.

+1

No, I feel less free in the Broken Sword series (compared to Indy 3 where I feel much more free).

That’s true. :slight_smile:

The question “how many verbs are prefect” came up regularly here in the forum and I admit that I have often thought about it. So I just would liked to create a topic for it. :slight_smile:

Personally I like the SCUMM interface a lot. And if I would create a SCUMM like adventure game I wouldn’t chose only 9 verbs.

Oh, my fault.

I think the answer is obvious, it depends on your specific game due to what others and I wrote above already. Anything from 4(+ special verbs/icons) to 9 verbs/icons could work.

An interesting part of the question is ‘What could you do instead?’ or ‘How to evolve?’ It’s a little bit like, asking for ‘What’s the best solution for an app interface on a text based system?’ whilst you’re running on a GUI based system already.

OK, now you are just trying to torture the user :slight_smile:

I was referring to the puzzle in Maniac Mansion (and also TWP) where you have to put another item at the same time in the microwave oven.
If you put the one first in it, close the door and then remember it may be a good idea to put another one also in, then you have a problem. Turning on the microwave just so you can get back to the open state is of course not very feasible.

Yes, close-ups would be another possibility at least for interesting objects! But then the implementation is rather expensive…

Well, I like verbs but these particular ones (Push/Pull) I could see merged into a “Move” verb.

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