What is "offensive"?

Again… I’m the author of a game called Kill Yourself.

I received lots and lots of emails saying I should be ashamed of making a game like that, because depressed and suicidal people exist. Because suicide isn’t a joke.

I think nothing is sacred and everything can be joked about… but even then, it’s all people who can’t understand that joking about X doesn’t mean joking about people who care about X.

War isn’t a joke. Murder isn’t a joke. Yet GTA and CoD exist and are successful. Is GTA being insensitive towards people who got their cars stolen? Is CoD insensitive towards those with relatives who died in war?

Also, is Wally a midget? :thinking: I always thought he was just short.

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I find this rather ironic, because these very same people will encourage you to change your gender to whatever strikes your fancy.

Which doesn’t mean it didn’t offend someone nonetheless. But yeah, right now the pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction. While a bit more sensitivity certainly doesn’t hurt, what really bothers me is how vigorously transgressions of good taste are chastised nowadays. Again, ironic how people that ask for more sensitivity severely lack it.

@seguso : Let’s back up for a moment from the specific topic of religion because, as you pointed it out, it’s surely a context where special sensibilities, rules (and expectance of those rules to be followed) have developed differently in different cultures over millennia.

Nonetheless, that millennia-old topic might be useful to remind us that “taking offence” isn’t a new phenomenon at all, generally speaking. Some people or group reacting with hate if you say something not intrinsically offensive but that offends them isn’t pleasant but it isn’t surprisingly new.

Maybe it may be considered relatively new for our western artistic culture that, just a few decades ago, benefited from the fact that people were more accustomed at receiving offence without reacting as much as people react nowadays in social media. I agree with Ema when he says that the old social environment was instrumental to get gems of artistic expression; I live near one of the few European Rocky Horror “houses” and it’s easy to win me citing that subculture…

… but we might have a very, very hard time trying to understand how much of the “politically correctness” movement is the result of newly developed sensibilities and how much it is the effect of already existing sensibilities getting more visible thanks, in part, to the Internet. As with many large phenomena, there is probably more than one reason or cause for a movement to arise.

While I’m aware of that movement and I have also followed a UK development of it and of its countermovement (specifically, the reform to Section 5 of Public Order Act: great supporting video by Rowan Atkinson), I’m not very familiar with Twitter.

I don’t know if what happens there is a result of a particularly emotionally charged environment, hypersensible to the topic, or a fair representation of all the opinions surrounding the re-definition of what is or isn’t offensive.

Thanks for taking the time to write those examples, I feel that the one about Denmark has not been reported fairly, but I don’t think that it matters much, because I think it’s a topic different from “offences of speech”.

In my opinion, the most that can be taken from these examples is that they suggest a clash of different sensibilities and subcultures. But acknowledging this doesn’t add very much to the already acquired knowledge that people have very personal definitions of what is or isn’t offensive. Nor it teaches us nothing new about how people may react when someone tells something that offends them.

Presenting the same list of examples to different social environments will simply meet with different reactions: in some contexts you’ll get a majority of people saying “rightly done!”, in others you’ll get mostly “outrageous!”, and in others you’ll get nothing, because some people have less polarized opinions or simply don’t give a shit… :stuck_out_tongue:

…which takes me back to my starting argument: “people telling that X is offensive” and even socially/politically advancing their opinion through an agenda aren’t an unnatural social phenomenon or something extraneous to the process that will define what “offensive” is: with its opposite movement, they are exactly the social mechanism that will contribute to (re)define what “offensive” will be in the future.

I did. I take everything. I even solve puzzles to get objects that I’m not even sure how I’ll use.

Why not, in your opinion? Some characters are intentionally designed to show jerkiness. Ransome is the first example that comes to my mind, but Guybrush showed also several traits of disrespectful cockiness.

The one written in French?

Are you referring to Monkey Island / comedy games specifically or to games in general?

The comedy tones of TWP didn’t prevent some serious discussion about ethic, if I remember correctly.

That might simply depend on which level of communication the two sides choose, it needs to be at least similar. People who are involved in X on an emotional level might find difficult or impossible to understand rational explanations. They are simply two different languages and some people can’t understand the rational one.

There was a person with whom I had to interact and that suffered from a personality disorder that completely switched off the rational side. This person was an extreme, but the neurological mechanism that in some people doesn’t facilitate interaction at a rational level is the same. I took that opportunity to remind to myself that my super-rational language is not the only one that exists.

I like the pendulum analogy. I think that we can’t exclude that the main thing that has changed in the last decades is simply which group of people feels more silenced.

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Comedy games, I suppose. I think comedy in general ought to get a lot more leeway when it comes to offensiveness and the utilization of mild offense to achieve an effect.

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I actually think there’s a lot to be taken from media, including comedies. It’s that trope about the king’s fool who can say anything to the king without getting punished (because he’s the fool), so he can be the one to give the king wisdom.

In The Cave, we spend the whole adventure following chatacter weighed down by their “heart’s desire”. It’s a pretty simple morality tale.

And yet… my daughter was a little weirded out by the Hermit, whose object of desire was a beloved dog who seemed to love and rely on the Hermit as well. You could explore that avenue all day. What if someone’s object were a beloved child? A spouse? “I will follow you Jesus, but only after I bury my father.”

That’s just one example. I think the Scientist’s level is pretty brilliant and as meta as anything else in the game; everything done is just so your adventure game hero can go through a door they need to pass through.

On some days, The Cave is my favorite video game.

EDIT: On the topic of this thread? The Twins needed to poison their parents. The game would have been lesser withoutvit, even as horrifying as it is to imagine in real life.

Because Ransome was intentionally designed as a jerk - for comedic effect, no less. Guybrush just wasn’t. Yes, he changed from a clueless pirate-wannabe in the first game to a bragging pirate-wannabe who likes to bore people to death with the retelling of how he beat LeChuck, which he/you did. In MI2 there’s tons of others in the game that behave far worse and with less respect than Guybrush does.
Largo?
LeChuck?
The fisherman?
Phatt?
The cook at the mansion who chases people with a cleaver?
Stan - who’d sell a good-as-new coffin to his own mother to have it recycled within a fortnight ?
All the other “real” pirates who only care for tending to their grog?
Elaine, who will let someone dangle for some more hours after days instead of helping first?
I bet they all have reasons for their misconstrued jerkiness and Guybrush is the obvious jerk here?

It seems like some people will get uncomfortable if the avatar they control in a game can say something or do something the player would never do in reality; especially if that is the solution to progress in the game. And that bothers them more than the downright evil behaviour of the NPC bad guys and antagonists.

To me, the running joke in MI2 is that whatever Guybrush accomplishes, someone else takes credit for. I can see how that leads to him bragging and getting more cocky. Still a long way from a jerk who would purposely bully, exploit and hurt others.

And in the end, he redeemed himself and gave Wally an even better lens for a monocle! And freed him from the Largo Embargo to finally see the islands he had been mapping out! And once more from that whole jail/acid pit of death situation!

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I never said they weren’t. :wink:

Anyway, don’t forget that “x is bad, actually” is simply an amusing pastime as well.

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That’s true, but how other characters behave doesn’t really help us to understand whether some people’s impression that Guybrush has become a jerkier character is based on the fact that the writers intentionally decided to develop Guybrush in that direction.

It’s a pirate world where many characters behave in mean ways and it wouldn’t be strange at all if Guybrush simply would follow those social rules and do the same, even if to a lesser extent.

In MI2se commentary, Dave Grossman points out how Wally continuously “takes abuse”:

he’s just been taking so much abuse over the course of the series

Actually, there was even a scene, eventually cut from the final version of MI2, in which Wally’s misfortunes increase. So, to me it seems that this character was intentionally designed as an unfortunate person who takes abuse from others and it’s difficult for me not to suspect that Guybrush was just as intentionally designed to not give a damn about him.

Also, Kate calls Guybrush “a famous jerk”.

But of course I’m biased, because I would like an intentionally jerky Guybrush to exist, so I’m just cherry-picking questionable evidence, here. :slight_smile:

Yes, for some people that may be true. Not sure of their percentage, though: most people might just don’t care and enjoy the game.

Oh, come on… :stuck_out_tongue:

He also gets that poor cook fired who frankly seemed overqualified for that bar. I guess he did become a jerk but that makes sense; one’s journey to become a pirate is unlikely to make one a more considerate person.

Makes me think of the Gentleman Pirate Stede Bonnet and Our Flags Mean Death, if anyone has seen that on HBO. Bonnet used to do some pirating around where I live in southeast North Carolina.

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Ok, I’ll give my contribution. I’ll do my best to avoid the wall of text, but it won’t be easy. I’ll write freely here, then I’ll write separate answers to some quotes, to make it easier to follow.

I want to make it clear again this: I DO NOT hate the concept of “politically correct”. I think that a global awareness to many social themes is really important in our society. I hate the dumb application of its principles.
And, most of all, I hate the paradoxical effect this dumb application might lead to.
It is not easy to elaborate what I’m trying to say, but I will try.

It is good to have some conventions.

For instance, take the “N-word”. Why is it conventionally banned? Easy, because black people find it offensive. But why they find it offensive? Easy. Because it was used by white people with bad intention.

I wrote this in italic, because I want to analyze the statement, it might be long.

My first comment is “conventions are determined by intentions”.
So, it is understandable that if I accept that convention, I will ignore the intention, and I will blame the use of the “N-word” in ANY context.
So, I feel compelled to avoid the “N-word” to be respectful towards black people, even if I don’t have the intention to be offensive. But, wait a minute. Is it respectful to underline the dichotomy between “black” and “white”?
Now that I think of it, my skin is not white. And “their” skin is not black at all.
I actually don’t like when people call me “white”, and I would not like to be called “black”, too. If we are trying to be inclusive, why this “us” and “them”, labelled with opposite hues of the chromatic scale, even if those hues aren’t representative of our beautiful respective skin tones?.
This is the real “blackfacing” to me. I hate calling african or african american people “black”. I hate the “B-word” more than the “N-word”. The N-word reminds us of the hate of the past, but the “B-word” is the symptom of the hypocrisis of the present.
And when I said I would not like to be called “black”, too, I wasn’t talking so hypotethically. I’m Italian. My skin is pale as a weisswurst, but I definitely look italian. So I am “black” to a lot of people.
This “us” and “them” contraposition often leads to the equation “white”=“WASP”, so sometimes “non-WASP” becomes equal to black.
This is the truth. I am italian. So If i travel in India or Africa, i am “white”. I’m just a WASP for them. If I travel to USA, I might be “black”.
This is why I mentioned “american” rules of politically correct, stating that I hate those rules.

My point is: we are all different, and that’s beautiful. Let’s just try to respect each other.

My impression of the american way to address the matter is: we are the WASP, and that is the “norm”. Then there are “the others”, and we must try to avoid offending them, because we are more privileged. We have to “accept” them. We have to “welcome” them in our Land of Freedom because they were born in unprivileged realities.

This is part of the “sense of guilt” of being privileged.

So, to sum up: privileged people, with their bad intentions and their hate built a contraposition between “them” and “us”. Then felt guilty about it. So “they” built conventional rules to avoid offending “us”, and we are expected to respect thos rules in order to avoid offending ourselves.

What’s the worst reaction I could have, being part of a minority? Accepting it, and making distincions. “Ok, I’m african american. So I can use the N-word, and nobody else”. “Ok, I’m gay, so I can say “fagot”, and nobody else”, “I am italian, so I can mock my people, and nobody else”. And so on.
Because since I am part of that minority, I’m not moking myself, but the stereotype.
But encouraging this I don’t have the impression we’re getting more and more inclusive.
I have the impression that every “minority” is closing on itself: we’re together, so we’re stronger". Like if every minority was a “city-state” behind walls. And the “respect” every city-state has towards each other is just to avoid fights.

That’s what I meant saying that respecting some conventions in public but being themselves in their echo chamber doesn’t make some people better.

I will take as another example the “cancel culture”.
Ok, I have made this bad thing in the past. I offended someone. So, from today on, let’s erase this".
This is the best way to ensure my descendants will make my same errors one day. You have to learn from the past, and not to cancel the past.

Or, speaking about being inclusive, take this:

“LGB” was conceived to be politically correct.

What a clumsiness. I immediately hated that acronym. I felt it divisive, and, most of all, discriminatory. Obviously, someboy felt immediately the need of adding a “T”.

LGBT. Ok, much better. Oh, wait a minute.

LGBTQ. LGBTQI. LGBTQIA.

Does this make any sense to you?

The only way of being INCLUSIVE is in our mind and in our hearts.
We have to accept all these compromises that makes us confident we are beahving respectfully, but in my opinion we are just doing this:

we are giving racist, sexist, homophobic people or general haters a simple decalogue they can respect in order to survive in our politically correct society, meanwhile we let them behave like pigs in their private homes and their echo chambers.

We need to teach and to educate, more than we need to regulate. But I’m a known dreamer.

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Which is the reason why most people hate Deponia, because “Rufus is an awful character”. While I loved him because he’s an absolute jerk. I love fictional jerks, if written properly. Ataru Moroboshi from Urusei Yatsura is a jerk and an idiot, yet he’s one of my favorite characters across all media. And playing as a jerk as I did in Deponia is fun - the same reason why I don’t play GTA obeying traffic rules, simulated abuse with no actual victims can be fun.

My favorite anecdote of how Americans have a skewed vision of races is when I was trying to explain to an American that “Italians consider themselves white. I mean, except for those of African descent, nobody would ever dare to deny being white”.

And he said “you’re not white, and you’re also kinda racist because you desperately want to be considered white instead of accepting that you aren’t”.

:man_facepalming:t2:

Another time was when some American said “Mario Balotelli isn’t Italian, he’s Black” and I was trying to make him understand that that’s a very racist thing to say - in fact, that was the thesis of Italian racists back then, that “there are no Black Italians” - but no, he was saying that we are racist if we consider Balotelli Italian, because he’s Black.

And that’s when it dawned to me that for this person, Italian is… a race. And so, by saying that Balotelli is Italian, we’re assigning a race and denying his actual race.

And I hate this. I hate this need for labeling, because first of all it does nothing but generate more segregation, and second it makes little sense outside of the US. Have a look at Switzerland’s national football team, by their standards basically no one is Swiss. The world is changing, ethnicities are more and more mixed. What makes your nationality is culture, not blood.

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[quote=“Guga, post:32, topic:5133”]“Mario Balotelli isn’t Italian, he’s Black” […]

And he said “you’re not white, and you’re also kinda racist because you desperately want to be considered white instead of accepting that you aren’t”.
[/quote]
Wow, what an idiot.

Fascinating obsolete opinion, also. It reminds of a period in history when in some parts of the US some ethnicities were legally considered “white” (super-vague term to the point of being almost meaningless, by the way) but not entirely recognized as such from a social point of view.

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Very interesting. As an American, I’ve never come across a single American in person who would say an Italian was black as opposed to white, no matter the skin tone. I’m 1/4 Italian and my mom is 1/2. Both of us get quite dark if we spend any time in the sun. Even during the pandemic I’ve remained somewhat tan.

But then there is the impossibly great scene in True Romance where Dennis Hopper discusses Sicilians with Christopher Walken, so I guess this opinion has it’s adherents.

In conclusion, sorry for my American counterparts going too far. I think they’re in a bizarre competition of sorts. The usage of the N word is a special case here since blacks in America are still treated as guilty until proven innocent and often simply shot on sight. The travesty knows no bounds.

The absurdity of that word in my mind is expecting no one to ever use it while it is simultaneously being utilized in popular music every day.

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Quite likely.

EDIT @LowLevel

Wow… First of all, thank you because I just discovered that the Rocky Horror House near where I live is still open (I don’t know why, but I was 100% it was closed forever some years ago). Second, I don’t know how much “near” is that place to your home, but that could mean we live within 2 km, and we didn’t have a clue about it.

Yes, that’s because of the internet. It’s the “echo chamber phenomenon”. The two polarized reactions are the echo chambers, while the people who doesn’t give a shit is maybe ignorant about the matter. The internet exposes some matters to much more people, and when more neutral people about that specifica matter see polarized reactions by others, are forced to take sides: “if this guy has my same point of view on the matter and he is SO MUCH offended by this, maybe I should feel the same”. And even ignorant people about the matter (the ones who “don’t give a shit”), seeing such reactions, starts wondering if that matter might be more important than they thought…

The internet facilitates polarization. In a word, it is more divisive than inclusive.
Not to mention that the few people who have unavowabole opinions about something (for example, racist people) might find on the net other people who think the same but have the “courage” to express themselves, such finding the right echo chamber to legitimate and grow their deviant ideas.

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The fact is that, for a European, native American culture is something felt like very far. In contrast, a crucifix is a strong icon of your culture, since you come from a catholic tradition. So using a cricifix in unorthodox way is much more transgressive, and yet is more acceptable from you, since you come from THAT culture.

Overlooking what looks to me as a generalisation, I’d like to take a minute wondering if comparing the choice of the fanciest hue for an emoji to the complex process that leads a person to make such a radical choice about their life would be considered politically correct… even with less restrictive rules than those I am blaming here. Sorry, mate. :blush:

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I’m going off topic here, but the main problem of the general American population is that they sometimes forget that other cultures exists :stuck_out_tongue: I mean, I can totally understand why American racial views make sense in the American context, given for example the different treatment of crime suspects depending on their ethnicity.

But I always like to say that racism in Europe is mostly rooted in xenophobia more than ethnicity in itself, and this makes the whole “black vs white” distinction less strong. I mean… yes, there are racists in Europe, but racism is more often based on the fact that a different looking person is more likely to be a poor immigrant. In fact, among Asians, Arabs and Central African people, the average Italian person used to hate on people from Eastern Europe despite the fact that they’re racially equal to us. But… they were poor immigrants who came here “to steal our jobs and commit crimes”. Lately, after the wave of African migrants, some old people even began praising the Chinese in Facebook memes, with stuff like “ever noticed how a Chinese works hard, commits no crimes, doesn’t ask for assistance from the government” referring to how African immigrants are supposed to do the opposite.

Why? Because Chinese immigration was a thing of the past and old-school racists are now so used to seeing Chinese people integrated in Italy, that they forgot how they hated them in the past.

And to me, this is an example of how race plays a role only because it used to reflect your origin. The world is changing and people below 30 are already used to the idea that you can be Black or Asian yet be 100% Italian, born and raised. So - maybe this is wishful thinking, but - I believe things can get better, but I also believe that subscribing to an America-centric racial correctness* is counterproductive in Europe.

Another example: my best friend has in his family a guy who is very very very uneducated. He means no harm, but he’s the kind of guy whose culture can be summarized in one word: none. And his experience with black people is the only one a 30-something man who never left Sardinia could have had: black people come from Senegal, they’re poor and they sell you stuff on the beach or at traffic lights. No other options given.

Then he visited my friend in Zurich and he was surprised to see black people well dressed, or working as bank tellers or store clerks or whatever. And he said he was positively surprised to see them, I quote, so civilized. He meant integrated :man_facepalming:t2: but still. His skewed views on black people, despite being kinda racist, weren’t based on hatred towards them at all. It was just really limited experience.

And this is what baffles me even more about race in America. When I was a kid I thought that racism was less present in the US because “here people hate other races because they’re foreigners, so why would they hate other races there since they’re all citizens?”. Boy was I wrong.

*what I mean by that is stuff like “you can’t use AAVE terms if you aren’t black” or “you can’t wear dreads if you aren’t black” or even “you can’t share gif reacts of black people if you aren’t black”. While I understand why some may want this, it’s nothing more than a return to segregation

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Also I’d like to underline how we’ve been able to discuss sensitive topics in a polite and respectful manner.

We’re one heck of a community here :100:

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