Kickstarter projects

[Someone]

@LowLevel

Backers on Kickstarter are more like donors and if they donate money to someone who makes unpopular decisions… that’s part of the highly risky crowdfunding world.

I am aware of that. And I don’t blame them. I just can’t understand that 3 million dollars weren’t enough.

[Nor_Treblig]

@Someone

@Nor_Treblig

@Someone

If I need (suddenly) far more money for a project, I would fire the producer/project manager immediately.

Tim just didn’t want to cut any more stuff from the game, and he is the boss.

Ah. I am a boss of a company […]

…and you would fire the producer/project manager after you told him to make it so after he had told you it costs more money and needs more time?
(This doesn’t have anything to do with customers/backers.)

@Someone

That’s illogical: When I have the money, I can make the game. If I haven’t it, I can’t make it - or I have to cut parts of the game (content). When I start a new project I have to make a business plan, a calculation. So what has the publisher and the other project to do with it? That were two different projects. It sounds that DF had used the backer money from the game for another game? If this is true, it’s bad management.

1. “Publisher etc.”: They have nothing to do with it, it happened later, at the end of project Broken Age if I recall correctly. But it means they are indeed running tight with the money.
2. DF has multiple teams working on multiple projects simultaneously. After this publisher couldn’t pay they apparently had to downsize to keep the company afloat. That’s were the DF-haters came from posting something like ‘Do you remember the Spacebase DF-9 debacle, they can’t be trusted etc. etc.’ on every DF related post.
3. Nobody said anything about backer money used for other stuff. From the backer money you also have to deduct costs for fees, taxes, rewards and documentation (the original estimate from DF was that this would amount to at least one third of the money). Since the documentation was much more extensive than originally anticipated it also cost a lot more.
   And in the end they just used much more money than they’ve got from the backers. And they used their own money (they have produced a bunch of games over the years which produced income, also nearly every co-worker had two kidneys when they were hired ).

[Someone]

@Nor_Treblig

…and you would fire the producer/project manager after you told him to make it so after he had told you it costs more money and needs more time?
(This doesn’t have anything to do with customers/backers.)

You twist my words. You mixed two different things:
As a boss of a company I can’t put more contents in a game as my budget allows. The producer should tell the boss what is possible and what not (if you have a producer).
Cut.
If I have a producer and this producer tells me after the first half of the game is finished that he needs another million dollar to finish the game I would fire him. Because it’s his job to assure that we don’t get over the budget or run out of money.

And yes, in this particular case of Broken Age it has to do with the customers, because DF had sold the first part to get (some) more money for the second part.

@Nor_Treblig

DF has multiple teams working on multiple projects simultaneously. After this publisher couldn’t pay they apparently had to downsize to keep the company afloat.

Yes. And? This affects one/this particular project. Each project has it own budget. And at DF they were experienced developers so they should know that a publisher could be bankrupt or something else. So they have to have a (emergency) plan for such situations.

@Nor_Treblig

That’s were the DF-haters came from posting something like ‘Do you remember the Spacebase DF-9 debacle, they can’t be trusted etc. etc.’ on every DF related post.

What has DF-9 to do with the budget of Broken Age? These are two different projects.

(AFAIR DF-9 was in Early Access. Other than in a Kickstarter you actually pay for a game in Early Access. And the most negative feedback I read was, that players won’t get the game they had paid for and that DF hadn’t communicate the problem(s) properly. But maybe here I’m wrong - so please correct me. )

@Nor_Treblig

Nobody said anything about backer money used for other stuff.

Well, your post implied that: You said that DF was in financial trouble, which means that they have to use money from other projects (including BA) to keep the development of the other projects alive. I haven’t an insight in the DF budgets and how they actually used the money.

@Nor_Treblig

From the backer money you also have to deduct costs for fees, taxes, rewards and documentation (the original estimate from DF was that this would amount to at least one third of the money). Since the documentation was much more extensive than originally anticipated it also cost a lot more.

I’m repeating me, but: I can’t produce a documentation that costs more than I can pay! DF knew what they promised the backers. For example they knew how many boxes they had to produce. So they could call the companies who produces tiny little boxes and ask them for a price. Same with the documentary: DF could hire a film team for a fixed price. So they knew in advance the costs and what remains for producing the game. And they were experienced: They had made several projects before.

@Nor_Treblig

And in the end they just used much more money than they’ve got from the backers. And they used their own money …

Revolution did that too. And that’s Ok. But in this case, DF had to use his own money after they had began to work on the game. It wasn’t intended to put more money in it. And this is a sign of bad calculations.

[Nor_Treblig]

@Someone

As a boss of a company I can’t put more contents in a game as my budget allows.

Of course you can. The budget is not a fixed thing. And we can assume the producer was telling him every day he can’t do it
Especially after reception of Act 1 they decided to make changes to Act 2. Yes, it needed even more time and money, but this was also an important prestige project for DF.
Of course they can adapt the scope of the project and the budget, why not?

@Someone

This affects one/this particular project.

The purpose of those multiple but smaller teams was not being depended from one big publisher which could potentially kill the whole company.
Having all those teams also means more flexibility in the whole company, e.g. you can temporarily assign more workforce to Broken Age during completion of a release cycle without the need to hire additional staff to lay them off right afterwards.

@Someone

So they have to have a (emergency) plan for such situations.

The emergency plan for such cases is what they did. It’s likely they put a lot of their “emergency” resources already in their prestige project, Broken Age, making them less flexible with solutions in this regard.

@Someone

What has DF-9 to do with the budget of Broken Age?

It’s the same company, they have to pay all their staff or lay people off if they can’t.
Also every time someone mentions Double Fine and project management failure of course they bring this one up.

Regarding DF-9: Yes, it was an Early Access game. Ideally early access alone would pay the development but this was more of a dream.
After they got into those financial troubles they had to do something. And one thing was axing this project (including JP LeBreton). No one was pleased with this decision, neither DF nor the buyers (but that’s also the risk of Early Access).

@Someone

which means that they have to use money from other projects (including BA)

There was no money in BA, it was more the other way around.

@Someone

DF had to use his own money after they had began to work on the game.

I don’t see the problem in this. Yes, they got into problems, that’s why I was talking about their other teams and projects.
Those problems weren’t directly related to BA, but of course indirectly it contributed to it because the buffer they had they likely used up with Broken Age.

@Someone

I can’t produce a documentation that costs more than I can pay

They can increase the scope of the documentation and allocate more costs to it. And that’s what they did. Apparently they could pay 2 Player Productions (or arrange whatever deal).

[Someone]

@Nor_Treblig

Of course you can. The budget is not a fixed thing. And we can assume the producer was telling him every day he can’t do it

No, you can’t. If you go into a supermarket you can only buy goods for the money in your wallet. Same here: If I put more features and contents in the game as I am able to pay, I will go bankrupt.

@Nor_Treblig

Of course they can adapt the scope of the project and the budget, why not?

If they have the budget - yes. Obviously DF hadn’t (otherwise they hadn’t needed to sell the first part separately…).

@Nor_Treblig

Having all those teams also means more flexibility in the whole company, e.g. you can temporarily assign more workforce to Broken Age during completion of a release cycle without the need to hire additional staff to lay them off right afterwards.

Yes. But you have to include these in your calculations too. Especially you have to build reserves, so that you don’t have to fire people after a canceled project.

But anyway, that is not important here: They had over 3 million dollar for an adventure game!

@Nor_Treblig

It’s likely they put a lot of their “emergency” resources already in their prestige project, Broken Age, making them less flexible with solutions in this regard.

Yes. In an adventure game. In a “dead” market. Where most of the potential buyers had backed the game already. Clever idea. But again: That’s not the point. They had enough money to produce the adventure. There was no need to put any emergency resources in the project.

@Nor_Treblig

It’s the same company, they have to pay all their staff or lay people off if they can’t.

As I wrote: For these cases the company has to build reserves. I know this is not easy in the game industry with the small profits. But then I can’t build a AAA game with more and more features. Beside that: It’s a different project with a different calculation.

[Nor_Treblig]

@Someone

No, you can’t. If you go into a supermarket you can only buy goods for the money in your wallet.

No. When I only have $10 in my wallet but want to buy goods worth of $100 I can pull out my debit card.
Or I want stuff worth $3000 and pull out my credit card. I just shouldn’t do this every time in the supermarket…

It’s not that the Kickstarter money was the only money they were allowed to use. They can and did use other sources, either existing ones or by finding new ones (investors).
And later when they released Act 1 they had another source.
Act 2 then actually did take quite some time to finish, but apparently they could pay their people without going bankrupt.

@Someone

you have to build reserves

That’s easy said.

@Someone

In an adventure game. In a “dead” market. Where most of the potential buyers had backed the game already.

How could you say that? I’m quite sure most potential buyers have/had never even heard of Kickstarter!
Those numbers may not mean a lot, but it’s at least more than the original ~90,000 backers: SteamSpy

@Someone

They had enough money to produce the adventure.

In the end they didn’t have enough money to produce it the way they wanted to. It cost about twice as much.
…which you either don’t believe or accusing them to have burned in management overhead, which is IMHO a ridiculous thing to claim.

@Someone

But then I can’t build a AAA game with more and more features.

Not sure what this has to do with Double Fine. I wouldn’t call the games that came out after Brütal Legend AAA titles.
I also don’t see that much feature creep in their games (especially not in Broken Age with its single-click UI )

[Someone]

@Nor_Treblig

No. When I only have $10 in my wallet but want to buy goods worth of $100 I can pull out my debit card.

You can. But you have to pay this money back. And if you haven’t any money left - you can’t. I know that most people today just lent money. But this only works if you can say for sure, that you are able to pay the money back.

@Nor_Treblig

That’s easy said.

But if you can’t build reserves, you have to spend the money more wisely.

@Nor_Treblig

How could you say that? I’m quite sure most potential buyers have/had never even heard of Kickstarter!

Ask Ron what he invested in TWP and when he had the break even. And TWP had less costs then BA. The adventure game market is a niche market. I wish it is not true, but it is.

The backers spend far more money then the buyers. Let’s assume DF had 150,000 buyers and they bought the game for 20 dollars. Then DF had earned 3,000,000. Even if we don’t subtract the taxes, shop fees, etc. the 3 million would just cover the (additional) production costs. So I would say that it is dangerous to invest the 3 million by a credit and hope that you find 150,000 (additional) buyers for an adventure game. DF had luck in this case.

(And as we all know: Don’t trust SteamSpy. :))

@Nor_Treblig

…which you either don’t believe or accusing them to have burned in management overhead, which is IMHO a ridiculous thing to claim.

No. I say that you can produce such an adventure for 3 million dollar. Point. You don’t need more money. So I would like to know what happened with the money and how they used it.

@Nor_Treblig

Not sure what this has to do with Double Fine. I wouldn’t call the games that came out after Brütal Legend AAA titles.

The AAA was a more drastic example. If you want another one: If I only have 1 pence, I can’t buy a bubble gum.

[Nor_Treblig]

@Someone

@Nor_Treblig

No. When I only have $10 in my wallet but want to buy goods worth of $100 I can pull out my debit card.

You can. But you have to pay this money back. And if you haven’t any money left - you can’t. I know that most people today just lent money. But this only works if you can say for sure, that you are able to pay the money back.

When using a debit card than you hopefully have that money on your bank account. DF didn’t have to just use Kickstarter money they can use their own money e.g. which they earn by selling all the games they’ve already made.
Another example is the XBox port of TWP which was paid by Microsoft for having console exclusivity (I believe they don’t need to pay back anything).

When using a credit card on the other hand then you have to pay it back. (e.g. other investors which also want some profit, or maybe you can convince angel investors, or a mortgage, or lending money from family members etc.).

@Someone

But if you can’t build reserves, you have to spend the money more wisely.

They spend their money on Broken Age and I liked the result, that’s wise enough for me

@Someone

Ask Ron what he invested in TWP and when he had the break even. And TWP had less costs then BA. The adventure game market is a niche market.

I’m not sure if he broke even yet. Didn’t he say something that all in all it cost about 1 million dollars?
Hmm, that’s also nearly twice as much as the Kickstarter money, reminds me of some other game…

@Someone

@Nor_Treblig

…which you either don’t believe or accusing them to have burned in management overhead, which is IMHO a ridiculous thing to claim.

No. I say that […]

You said:

… it’s their fault. In terms of revenues it was a success and would have been generated profits. But DFA had spend theses profits for the non working management or what-do-I-know-a-whoo.

Which sounds a little bit like management overhead, cruise ship tours, Ferraris and hookers to me…

@Someone

I say that you can produce such an adventure for 3 million dollar. Point. You don’t need more money.

You always need more money.
Of course you can produce an adventure game for 3 million dollars. You can also produce one for 1 million dollars, one for $100,000 or for 15 million dollars.
This one (Broken Age) happened to cost maybe 6, 7 million dollars.

They used the money to create the game. Graphical assets don’t draw themselves, they don’t even animate and add special effects themselves. The musical score doesn’t record itself, even voice actors want money and all those countless ports of the game + engine don’t program themselves.

I don’t understand what’s your point. You believe you can make an adventure game for 3 million dollars but you don’t believe one made with 6 million dollars? It’s “just” twice as much.
(Just stop playing Broken Age after ~6 hours and you have your 3 million dollar game, happy now? )

@Someone

The AAA was a more drastic example. If you want another one: If I only have 1 pence, I can’t buy a bubble gum.

Hm, this sounds like an adventure game puzzle…

[rugged]

The likes of Broken Age will probably end up making them a bit of back catalogue money. I get the feeling Schafer would be talking down any profits, as the game went over time and budget, frustrated fans probably don’t want to hear that it made them good money as well.

[Gffp]

While engaging a massive battle against chaos as a new year resolution, struggling against external hard drives, DVDs, cloud savings and all other forms of backups,
I found a saved Firefox bookmark about the very first Kickstarter project I’ve ever heard of in my whole life.
According to what @Nor_Treblig wrote in the opening post of this thread, the project should belong to the third cathegory, and the prevision is well realized, even if it’s not a videogame:

@Nor_Treblig

Regarding video game projects on Kickstarter I’d differentiate between team sizes:

Summary

• Bigger companies having a reasonable team size (e.g. DFA) but also being able to put more funding (internal and external) into it. Or fail spectacularly if they can’t.
• Then there are smaller sized teams (like TWP) which are IMHO most likely to fail on Kickstarter. They may be able to secure additional external funding but if it’s not enough the team may break apart eventually and the project can never be finished (including legal problems [IP] etc.).
• And then there are projects whose core teams only consists of one, two people. After the funded money is gone they may take ages to finish, but those people often pour their heart and soul into the project, so their owner(s) will keep working on it for a long time, e.g. during their spare time having another job.

Look at its state now, four years later:
http://kickscammed.com/project/g-stick-by-gordon-alan-stewart/#.WlQABmcgloa
(my old bookmark automatically redirects there).
Luckily I didn’t back because it was my first approach with the platform.
I loved that project and still think it’s a very smart idea, but that confirmed how important is a realistic management of resources and time in such projects and how fairly they were managed for TWP in comparison.

[Nor_Treblig]

Their comment sections are still quite active (with a lot of frustrated backers).

---

Hardware Kickstarter projects are much more risky because you need real money to eventually produce something and more money for shipping and handling.

With software/videogame projects you can have a small group of people with day jobs keep creating the game on their weekends end eventually release something digitally (most backers are digital-only anyway).

This wouldn’t be possible with hardware projects.
I was lucky with all my non-software projects for now.

[BigRedButton]

The crowd-funded Ghost of a Tale has been released for PC a few days ago. It is similar to Thief and you play a little mouse there, surrounded by a medieval setting. The graphics are really nice!

https://www.gog.com/game/ghost_of_a_tale

Releases for PS4 and Xbox One will follow “later this year”, according to the official blog. There are a free demo and a game preview for Xbox One, though. A Switch port is unlikely for technical reasons.

[RonGilbert]

@Nor_Treblig

I’m not sure if he broke even yet. Didn’t he say something that all in all it cost about 1 million dollars?

Hmm, that’s also nearly twice as much as the Kickstarter money, reminds me of some other game…

It depends on what you call “break even”. We spent $1M on the game and it’s made us over $1M, so in that sense, it’s broken even (and then some). Where it gets complex is that Gary and I worked for basically nothing for 3 years, if you add in what we could have made just having a job, then it’s not break even. Those 3 years I worked for free, I pulled money from my savings, and that has not been paid back yet, but probably will be by the time we hit our 1yr mark.

[lilbeeper]

A salary for everyone involved, including yourselves, belongs in the cost calculation. Otherwise it would be lying to oneself. So, it’s not yet break even.

[Someone]

@lilbeeper

A salary for everyone involved, including yourselves, belongs in the cost calculation. Otherwise it would be lying to oneself. So, it’s not yet break even.

Exactly! All salaries a company has to pay are part of the calculations. So @RonGilbert hasn’t reached break even. And IMHO these costs had to be part of the money that was demanded on Kickstarter.

[BigRedButton]

Unfortunately, the expectations of backers would be increased, if they tried to collect an even larger sum of money via Kickstarter next time. So, if they decide to also crowd-fund their next game, they ought to collect approximately $2M, so that they would not only have own salaries but also would be able to enhance the visual style in comparison with TWP, in order to satisfy the backers.

[RonGilbert]

@lilbeeper

A salary for everyone involved, including yourselves, belongs in the cost calculation. Otherwise it would be lying to oneself. So, it’s not yet break even.

Oh, grasshopper, you have much to learn. There are many ways to calculated breakeven depending on your purpose. People getting backend (Gary and I) are often left out of breakeven. Just like the investors, we took a risk for possible higher reward. The project has broken even, I have not. They are different (but intertwined) things. It’s not simple.

@Someone

And IMHO these costs had to be part of the money that was demanded on Kickstarter.

That rarely happens for several reasons. Backer won’t (anymore) back projects at a level that affords the team to be paid. Look at most games out there these days. They are asking for $30K or maybe $90K at the high-end. This is NOT paying the team. A lot of backers do think we should be working for free. Next time you back a project asking for $50K and they list a team of 6 people, realize none of these people are being paid. Gary and I hoped to be paid but decided that the money was better spent on the game to make it better. That’s a decision projects make all the time.

[Someone]

@RonGilbert

There are many ways to calculated breakeven depending on your purpose.

Yes, but not in calculating a project. The fixed costs (=loans) are part of the corresponding project. If you don’t take them into account, you can’t calculate properly.

@RonGilbert

People getting backend (Gary and I) are often left out of breakeven.

Yes, but not if you would like to calculate the overall financial success of the project.

@RonGilbert

Backer won’t (anymore) back projects at a level that affords the team to be paid.

Who said that? Do you have a source for this? (I still really would like to pay the developers.)

@RonGilbert

They are asking for $30K or maybe $90K at the high-end.

sigh. We have discussed this already. In a nutshell: Those developers underestimate the work and the money needed and they don’t communicate properly where the money is needed for.

Beside that, you have to distinguish between projects that have already produced (large parts of) the game (like Trüberbrook) and games that are at the beginning. The first one are collecting less money than the other.

@RonGilbert

Gary and I hoped to be paid but decided that the money was better spent on the game to make it better.

Sorry for the following statement in advance. I apologize for it, but I don’t know how to say it in a better way: This is dumb. I can’t spend more money than I have.

I don’t know any (non charitable) company where all employees are saying: “We are working three years without any salary just to give our customers this golden steering wheels in our new car!”

@RonGilbert

That’s a decision projects make all the time.

Of course you have to make decisions. But these have to be made within the budget (that has to be re-calculated).

[BigRedButton]

@Someone

(I still really would like to pay the developers.)

Me too.

@Someone

sigh. We have discussed this already. In a nutshell: Those developers underestimate the work and the money needed and they don’t communicate properly where the money is needed for.

To me it rather seems as if Ron is right. Such developers want to make sacrifices for their project, because they have high hopes in terms of the subsequent revenue. This is risky indeed, though. In terms of TWP, it apparently has turned out to be a wrong decision, up to now.

[RonGilbert]

@Someone

We have discussed this already. In a nutshell: Those developers underestimate the work and the money needed and they don’t communicate properly where the money is needed for.

Oh man, is this horribly naive. I talk to devs doing KSes all the time, and they know they aren’t asking for enough money, but they want to take a risks. I don’t think it’s smart, but it’s not due to “miscalculation”. They want to ask for enough money to build the game and make a living, but they know they will never get it.

@Someone

Yes, but not in calculating a project. The fixed costs (=loans) are part of the corresponding project. If you don’t take them into account, you can’t calculate properly.

Once again, you’re talking about stuff you don’t understand. TWP took no loans. We had investors, those are not loans. They got a % of ALL money and if the game bombed, we had no obligation to pay them back.

@Someone

Yes, but not if you would like to calculate the overall financial success of the project.

And once again, you’re not understanding. Breakeven is not the same as financial success. Please don’t confuse the two

@Someone

I don’t know any (non charitable) company where all employees are saying: “We are working three years without any salary just to give our customers this golden steering wheels in our new car!”

Sorry, this happens all the time if you own a big stake in the company (which Gary and I do). I would never ever ask this of anyone working on TWP or an employee, but since Gary and I own the company, this is very different. Owners take risks all the time.