It would be interesting to know how much better/worse TWP would have done if it had been released as the exact same game, but without the verbs and with an art style that didn’t have pixels.
It would be fun to do that as a secret thing, like take away the verbs, do some kind of quick art de-pixel conversion (like the DOTT remastered version), give it a different name (something obvious like “Twin X Detective Story” or “Paranormal Agents Files”) and keep everything else exactly the same and release it and see how it did.
@DZ-Jay: Well said! I agree with your last two posts in every aspect!
Not in my opinion: Cuphead is an old-school platformer that tries to be an homage to old cartoons. TWP is an old-school adventure game that tries to be an homage to old adventure games. Both games are throwing their players back (to the 30s and to the 90s).
(And Cuphead does not only try to throwback the players, it does throwback the players. It is actively marketed as an old cartoon (cite): “… the visuals and audio are painstakingly created with the same techniques of the era, i.e. traditional hand drawn cel animation, watercolor backgrounds, and original jazz recordings.” In comparison the Steam description of TWP doesn’t even mention that this is an old-school adventure game - it doesn’t even say a (funny) thing about the graphics style.)
Yes, I agree that they both show a kind of art and visuals that were common in the past.
What I’m trying to say is that Cuphead doesn’t have the main issue that Thimbleweed Park creates with its interface: providing a kind of gameplay that many players perceive as outdated.
To make an action, you need to call a toll-free number where Ron Gilbert in person answers and you need to tell him what is your next move. If you guessed right, he mails you the next scenes and the text.
And what about an online game with text input? You can type commands and phrase them in any way you like, and the game always understands. Because there’s actually an employee there who reads what you write.If you are right, he updates your world. Otherwise he laughs at you, but you never get a generic error message. Then you make Lowlevel do the marketing, and you sell it as an innovative game that passes the Turing test. True, you need to wait 10 minutes to have a response, but it’s because the algorithms are very complex and innovative.
I thought about giving that answer, but I wasn’t 100% sure that screen phosphors wouldn’t be considered pixels from a physical point of view. I think that they shouldn’t, but I wasn’t sure, so I opted for the audio answer.
Hi all, and sorry to dig up this old threat. But I stumbled across TWP only two weeks ago, bought it and played through it now.
I just wanted to give some opinions on why I think TWP did not achieve the commercial success hoped for and if there’s a chance for PnC adventures (by Ron) in the future or if TWP was the fulminant ending of a genre.
I’m, as most here, a kid of the MM, MI, Lucasfilm days. So I’m in the core target group.
As Ron pointed out already, TWP was fueled by the loyal fans initially also in game design and appearance but later it struck back because it limited the possible buyers group. Graphics, game design and interface clearly focus on pleasing the old school fans.
I’d also say, TWP or the design of the game limited it even more. Unlike e.g. MI the topic excluded kids up to a certain age because it is very dark, creepy and all in all “adult” style.
Furthermore, the story and topic is quite “nerdy”. Like Ron said, it is more or less the Mulholland Drive of games, it has no mainstream appeal like MI or Indy. So you have the next limitation, cause even some MI lovers could be turned down by the creepy story. I’d say, it comes closest to being a “bastard” of MM, Zak and Loom storywise. So you even have a limitation inside the nerd community, cause it appeal to a certain group of nerds. The way TWP was desigend, it was no chance it would go the mainstream route but rather to enter the hall of fame of cult, critically praised and loved, but only be a limited group of fans. And it did.
So, to judge the commercial success I think it’s not fair to compare it to today’s mainstream games but to the sales of MM, Zak, Look, probably MI1 back then. I don’t know about sales neither back then nor today, but maybe Ron can give a clue as wether TWP is on par with let’s say the success of Zak. Minus biological degradation and old school gamers that haven’t heard of TWP (like me until recently).
I’m no expert, but even by doing so one probably can’t compare market shares but only actual selling figures. Because even when LFL games were big sellers back then, the gaming community was still quite nerdy and far from being well integrated in popular mainstream like today when games like GTA are as popular as blockbuster movies. LFL games were hits within a a still very small audience group.
The best way to overcome this dilemma would (in hindsight) probably have been to do it like the “Special Editions” of MI and provide two different switchable versions for the oldschool fans and newer gamers both in terms of graphics and interface. But yeah, that would probably not have been possible to finance.
And it still would not have overcome the “nerd story” limitation.
I still see potential for a Ron adventure game that is more successful. I think it isn’t even that much you need to change. PnC is not dead per se, I suppose, it is mainly a question of how it is delivered. To attract today’s gamers, there is no way around that tou need graphics at least on par with COMI, a changeable interface (verbs for old schoolers/whatever else for others) and a little more mainstream appealing story. (Don’t get me wrong: I love the story of TWP, with all the mysteries probably never being solved, but I’m not mainstream, I guess, like most of us). You could even deliver the game with a modern interface only first to avoid the “stigma” of PnC in the media and sell the old school verb interface via paid download content for old schoolers. Plus, it would probably be a good idea to have some sort of new approach to make it relevant for today’s gaming market so it doesn’t feel like a “throwback game” but more like an innovation just like MM back then. Combine that with Ron’s trademark humour and some catchy main character in the likes of Guybrush or Indy and I think there’d be a good chance of at least an indie hit.
Someone brought up the comparison to music bands. I think that’s fair, since Ron has to decide now whether he wants to do the old school stuff (probably also out of self interest) just for fun or to move more towards today’s mainstream and have at least the revenues for a living. Or try both and change the approach with every project. I think TWP is a bit like Led Zep reunited and did one record that is on par with their finest, and then being disappointed it did not achieve the commercial success of today’s mainstream rappers. With TWP Ron et. al gave at least me what I was not even hoping for, now they just need to find a way to attach to today’s gaming world a little more and maybe take me with them by finding new ways of delivering beloved puzzles.
Just my two cents, still I’m glad TWP is there, loved every second of it and surely hope it won’t be the end of Ron’s and our adventures. I’ll be there when the next campaign is going to roll.
Losch
But the graphics in Thimbleweed Park aren’t even close to being in the same league as those in CoMI, no matter how much I might enjoy the latter. The only other games I’ve played in recent years that looked anywhere near this good were Broken Age, Prince of Persia (2008), occasionally but not consistently Tomb Raider and Rise of the Tomb Raider, DmC, often but not always Psychonauts, and possibly Oxenfree (but the character models weren’t quite as nice as the environment in that one imo).
If I had to choose, my top 3 of the past decade or so would probably be:
Thimbleweed Park
Prince of Persia
DmC
Honorable mentions for Gorogoa, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter (especially Redux), Alan Wake, Shadow Tactics, Samorost 2/3, and Dreamfall Chapters.
NB That’s about looks. I thought Alan Wake was rather on the boring side as a game. And I wouldn’t put Thimbleweed Park at #1 — possibly not even in the top 3 but “merely” in the top 5. Prince of Persia was amazing but I don’t think it’d make the top 5. Anyway, I’m sure you get the idea. The above top 3 is about graphics.
I personally would rank TWP as one of the best games in graphics, too, because it creates a unique atmosphere with an intentionally chosen style - it is a beautiful piece of art. I was occasionally returning to the viewing point just because it was so fantastic to watch the landscape.
I was just trying to say that the pixel style we love might not resonate with today’s gamers because they feel it is way outdated. If you don’t have the background of the old days it is probably hard to appreciate the special way the graphics are delivered in TWP. It could have reached a wider audience IMHO if there was a version that had higher resolution like COMI or the Special Editions.
Stardew Valley is selling better than Mario on Switch… it has sold millions and millions of copies on PC. Ultimately, players want fun games. PIxel art can be an uphill trek, but it is far from a road block.
For a lot of devs, Pixel art is an artist choice. Thimbleweed Park could not have been made in anything other than pixel art, and that not because it was a “throw back”, it was part of the story and vision. If TWP had been in nice high res animated art, the story would be lost and probably would have sold worse. Whether I do pixel art in a future has to do with the story I’m trying to tell and the mood I’m trying to create. Some film markers use B/W in modern movies, not because they are making a throw-back movies, but due to the artist vision.
Beside Stardew Valley there are several other examples like FTL or Minecraft…