Ron declares he is working on a new Monkey Island

But, but… that’s exactly what I’m saying.

Some people wrongly argued that Ron had to choose a simplistic, abstract art style because the budget wouldn’t allow for more detailed and intricate backgrounds. I used Deponia as a single example in order to demonstrate that’s simply not the case and that detailed backgrounds can be produced for a low budget indie adventure game (wherever or not you personally like Deponia’s art style is entirely beside the point).

So, we’re absolutely in agreement; Ron did not choose that art style because of budgetary constraints. He chose it because he likes it. The Spine animation is a separate issue and I agree that was likely chosen in part due to budgetary reasons.

Then I’m starting to form a suspicion that we may agree. Very suspicious, indeed. Cheers.

Objection! You must argue until one or both of you expires, as per the rules of the internet.

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In the spirit of the internet, I will oblige. I figured the budget argument had to do with animation, particularly one-off animations, which were, I think, an intensive therefore expensive thing back in the day. Anyway, in this duel I choose the banjo. At least initially.

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I can confirm that was not what the budget argument being put forth was in relation to. It was to do with the art style in general and the notion that detailed backgrounds cannot be created for an indie adventure game on a modest budget, despite there quite literally being dozens of examples which prove otherwise.

In that case I guess I missed the background nature of the argument, and must concede and shuffle myself off to Valhalla per Paul’s Law of the Internets.

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In my opinion, using Spine to animate characters is both an artistic decision and a production decision, because Spine makes it easier to animate characters and the whole animation process becomes less expensive when compared to animating everything by hand.

The side effect of that “bones” technique is that you always get jointed paper dolls:

immagine

Some people like it, others don’t, and other immediately associate that kind of guided/restricted movements to the desire of simplifying the animation process and reducing costs. An economic aspect does exists, so I’m not surprised that some people can make an association between it and the ending visual results.

What I think it’s not possible to do, @St_Eddie , is comparing different games without having information about budget and other socioeconomic aspects. Given my background, the argument “more or less the budget is the same, so the visual result was affected only by the artistic choices” seems to cut out a lot of important information and I’m afraid that accepting this simplification might mislead us all.

For start, when it comes to budgets and economics, the meaningful information that we should have would be numbers, currencies and in which years the production happens. Without actual numbers, we know nothing.

Moreover, we don’t know how the RtMI budget was allocated and how it compares to other games. We don’t know if reducing the costs of the animation process was useful to achieve other goals that the developers decided were more important to reach.

Hours of playtime, for example. So, yeah, I see a paper doll effect that personally I don’t like, but maybe choosing it contributed to achieve X hours more of playtime for me. Is that good for me? I have no idea, I have to wait for the game to decide if those X hours were hours of enjoyment or hours of torture. :grin:

Also, it’s not correct to assume that all companies and projects face the same amount of costs. How much people are payed varies quite a lot between different countries and jurisdictions. This has also an effect on companies that have their employees or contractors in different countries: some companies take advantage of these inter-country differences, while other companies don’t feel comfortable in paying some employees less, only because life costs less in the country where they live.

Finally, and this is an aspect that should never be forgotten, sometimes it’s possible to achieve a result or achieving it in a shorter time (again, an aspect that affects economics) at the expense of some employees and their well-being. They can be crunched or squeezed as much as possible and that’s an hidden cost, invisible to players. We, again, have no idea if this is the case for the game productions that we would like to compare.

All these aspects are usually intermingled. It’s extremely unlikely that any aspect isn’t influenced by the others.

So, is it theoretically possible for a production team to do the same of better of other production teams? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not. Were there the conditions to achieve something similar? Until we have more information… who knows?

It’s up to us to decide how much information we want to base a comparison upon, but we need to be aware that if we cut a large quantity of key data we run the risk of transforming complex items into apples and oranges.

That’s why, in more formal contexts, consultants usually refuse to provide an opinion without assessing internal data. From an external point of view they can only see the result, not why it happened.

Do I expect people on the Internet to wait for information before providing an opinion? Of course, no. That would kill 99% of the discussions. :stuck_out_tongue:

But I also think that every now and then it’s useful to point out that we know almost nothing and that in accepting excessive simplifications there is a risk of deluding ourselves.

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I disagree with all the premises.

Making things not look busy takes time. It’s very easy to add too many details that distract from where the focus should be.

Cheap (i.e., constrained) can have an easier time hitting that goal than something more expensive where people have lots of time to add too many details, but RtMI oozes lots of care and attention. There’s nothing cheap or undetailed about it.

Yet, the backgrounds in Return to Monkey Island absolutely lack focus points, despite the simpler art style.

All of Rex Crowe’s screens we’ve seen thus far from the game have very poor composition. The key to making an effective adventure game background is to have points of focus for the player’s eyes to immediately jump to and within a single second, for them to have a good grasp of the screen in its totality. Whereas, all of Rex Crowe’s backgrounds are a jumbled mess of focal points. It takes too much time for the viewer to unscramble it all within their mind.

Bill Tiller talked about the key to composing a well designed adventure game background in a blog piece. Of special note and relevance are the following quotes…

“Use extreme values and contrast to draw the eye to toward the focal point of the action. This will highlight the area in the room that is most important for the player. You don’t want to create an unintentional puzzle out of a visually confusing background. Or, maybe you do, if you’ve run out of puzzle ideas. For example, if the player needs to talk to a shop keeper, don’t use your whitest white or darkest black in far corners of the room. Use them near the counter where he is going to be standing. That way it will say “The action is going to take place here, not over by the stove.”

“Stay away from even balance in your shapes and overall composition. For example, if one were drawing a crate and wanted to make it interesting, turning the crate three quarters so that one side was showing more than the other is more interesting than seeing both sides evenly.”

Rex Crowe’s backgrounds simply don’t abide by the fundamentals of effective composition when creating adventure game background art.

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Having said that, I really do appreciate the use of colour within Crowe’s backgrounds. It’s very aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

Or even a fan game: http://www.mckracken.net
The audio has some flaws, but the graphics are excellent, imho.
I even offered my time remastering the audio, but they didn’t seem interested.

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Somebody has a wild theory that this could be a young Guybrush:

immagine

The character is way shorter than any other character in the SCUMM Bar.

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If there’s a snowy island and it doesn’t become snowy because of actions within the game itself, I’d much rather them not explain it. Literally having Guybrush go “huh?” would be more amusing than explaining it (unless they’ve come up with some great explanation that is super amusing on its own).

This world has magic, something approximating hell underneath an island, an army of ghosts, a goblin guarding a bridge, chimps living in the Caribbean. I don’t need to know why the weather on one island defies its location on earth. They break the 4th wall constantly. They are not bound by our rules.

As long as the characters act believably based on their personalities and the story beats and puzzles make sense and are fun, I could not possibly care about stuff like that given the overall tone of the games themselves

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That was my take as well. Some of the scenes in the trailer do have nice focal points, but others like the key shop are just so busy and disorganized you cant tell what’s going on.

The thing that bothers me the most though is the character design, because it’s going for a primative outsider art vibe, which would be fine if it’s a genuine outsider art. But it’s not, it’s a style choice, like an imitation of that, and it seems unnecessarily convoluded and an attempt at forced playfulness or something.

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I think there are flashbacks like “TWP” in the game

Someone much cleverer than myself said that a character should mockingly refer to Guybrush as “Guybrush Thimbleweed”.

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To non-native English speakers, it stands a better chance to come across than puns like Mêlée, Scabb & Booty. It is on par with Phatt for me: I get it on the 2nd or 3rd read (not after 20+ years when using google translate like the first three)

Despite that, I have the impression there are much more special case animations than we’ve had before. Yay!

I don’t want to start a discussion about appreciation of the composition or other artistic qualities. But I would not consider a screen you need some time to process as an unusual or bad thing in a P&C adventure game. In a shooter: yes - I want to see the enemy that is firing at me. In a driving game: yes, I want to see the track and the curve ahead. In a puzzle game where quick reactions are not part of the gameplay, but being observant is: maybe walking past the key three times before you see it hanging in the chandelier is part of the fun! For me it is, at least.

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Sounds like poor design to me.

I’ve seen on another forum people calling the fans who love the art style “insincere” or “blind”.
I think it’s unfair.

I would actually like to explain why I like the art style, not to convince anyone, of course, but just so that people know where I’m coming from. I’m sure I’m not the only one thinking that way.

And, again, I apologize for the bad English. I’m trying my best.

1- Yes, that’s true, I guess, I trust Ron Gilbert. I think he must have a good reason for choosing this art style. I think most of all this will be justified by the story. I have some theories about it, and I feel like choosing storybook graphics will have a meaning in the game ;

2- This is what I think is the most important part for me. I have always been more of a fan of Monkey 1 and 2, and I always found these games a bit… surrealistic? If that makes sense. Something seem weird/off - in a good way - to me while playing this game, like I wasn’t just exploring a pirate world but something else. I feel like the characters being in pixels, not being able to see exactly what they looked like - or even the difference between the realistic pictures and pixel characters in Monkey 1 è the environnement being dark, sometimes creepy, the lack of voice acting… It made the world very strange, scary, and unique.

I love Curse’s art style, but, IMO, it made everything more… “clear”. I don’t know if it’s the right word, again I’m not a native English speaker, but basically, the pirate world became a normal pirate world. I didn’t have any doubt about what’s happening. It was just a pirate story. And that’s fine… but, for me, it’s not what Monkey Island is about. I absolutely love MI2’s ending because, for me, it goes completely into this surrealistic aspect.

I heard that for Knights and Bikes, Rex Crowle wanted to use his art style has something that makes us doubt if we are in the reality or in a dream, like a child’s fantasy. And I’m confident that Ron chose him for that.

Going back to my opinion… I love this art style for this reason. It makes the world of Monkey Island strange again, different. It’s like a callback to what I felt while playing the first two games as a kid. I feel like going back to pixel-art would not have work because now pixel-art feels nostalgic and reassuring. Thimbleweed Park felt like home. I didn’t have this weirdness to me. I think the art style catch perfectly the surrealistic vibe. I feel like I’ll be playing a strange and different game like I did when I first played Monkey 1 and 2 as a kid. These games didn’t look like anything else. And that’s why they were unique to me.

3- For me, it’s a style that is complex in his simplicity. Like, for example, yes, the characters look like puppets, but they seem very expressive to me. I feel like Guybrush doesn’t have the same expression in any part of the trailer. It’s very subtle, IMO, but it works. For games like Curse or Deponia, even though I love some and found them beautiful, I feel like the characters only had a dozen sprites depending of the situation, but, besides that, they always had the same expressions. Rufus, mostly, in Deponia… There was some intense part, and they were still using the same sprites over and over again. It seems to me that Return will be like Broken Age, with puppets characters specifically animated for every situation, and this is something I really like.

Again, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. This is not my goal. I understand people not liking the art style at all.

I just wanted to explain why I liked it so much, and why it wasn’t just me being blind or something like that.

It sincerely makes me feel the same way I felt when I played the first two games.

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You know that is literally from Maniac Mansion, right?

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