Interesting. Then why are the verbs in the Italian version in the imperative form? As @ZakPhoenixMcKracken wrote, the italian words in the infinitive form aren’t too long for the verb slots …
German version: indicative or subjunctive I
Italian version: imperative
Spanish version: infinitive
I don’t know what to think about it.
Hmm… I can’t find his comment about this.
Even if the infinitive form can fit in the slots, the imperative form creates shorter words that in my opinion are aesthetically more pleasing and make more sense (assuming that the player is giving commands to the characters).
This is Boris and Ron has sent me here to solve a mystery.
My official reason for using different verbs in the UI is this:
Franklin
Due to the fact that Franklin has commands that end with the “-e” form because they have NO object (Stöhne, Verzage…) I wanted to keep ALL verbs in that form on the command line. And because Franklins verbs always were a secret pre-launch, I couldn’t tell this story when the first German screenshots hit the web and the discussion started.
The German grammar is broken in Point and Click adventures games since Maniac Mansion (actually since Murder on the Mississippi, but I don’t want to get super picky about that). Give A to B needs to be Gib B das A in German. Anything else is wrong and hurts my eyes - but I did not dare to rewrite the code for that in Monkey Island (I messed enough with it already to fix some small grammar issues). So discussing whether it needs to be “Nehme” or “Nimm” for grammar reasons seems to be the wrong discussion for me.
That leaves the “historical” value of having the same verbs as old games. I have no beef with that.
My suggestion to Ron for a patch is: Change the retro verbs into MI-style (Nimm, Gib) but keep the standard verb line as shipped.
So: It’s “Nehme” and not “Nimm” because it is “Stöhne” and not “Stöhn” for Franklin.
I would keep it that way, but if public demands a change, so be it. Changing the Retro verbs seems to be like a great compromise, but that is a personal opinion.
Thank you all for your support of the game - whether it is Nehme or Nimm,
First of all: Thanks for your explanation. As I supposed, It was easier than I thought.
I don’t think that this is a problem: It’s obvious that you create the whole sentence from a range/palette of different parts and thus they won’t fit (grammatically) together. It’s more important that all other sentences are correct. But of course, it would be nice, if the game could build a correct German sentence.
My knowledge about the English language is very incomplete (= horrible), but isn’t that true for the English version too? Is “Give chainsaw to Ray” grammatically correct (in the sense of a perfect sentence)?
The problem here is, that you mix different forms. This confuses most players, because they won’t do this in other situations/real life.
Hm… wouldn’t that even be more confusing?
I wouldn’t say that the public demands a change. It’s just that most people are confused and don’t get it, why you have chosen the “-e” form.
I’m the last in the world who can speak for Germans, but if I have understood its grammar, “Give chainsaw to Ray” in German, sounds like “Given Ray the chainsaw”, that is the destination person should be first.
The game builds correct sentences in this way: When you click “Nehme” “Object”, TP writes “Nimm (der/die/das) Object” in the sentence line! Plus, all objects have gender (different in every language) and this is used to build correct sentences that are MORE than just verb/object/subject strings.
Indeed, you can see that those are typical DVD subtitles (just image overlay) and those are always translated independently of the actual dub from English. They NEVER 100% fit the spoken words even in better productions. Here they don’t fit at all of course.
Reading this I’m now happy, that early Leasure Suite Larry games weren’t translated to German. Because having the parser recognise what you type in could have been quite tricky for any translation. Though the valid sentences were quite simple at that time.
I wouldn’t have had any problem with “Stöhn”, as 1) this is valid imperative form and 2) it reminds me of the German Mad Magazine.
Yep, I’ve noticed that back then that there weren’t any screenshots with Franklin’s UI
I can understand people being curious about this and it’s nice to now have a definitive answer, but I’m surprised that some were actually bothered about it (see Steam discussion).
Maybe my love for the German language just isn’t developed enough
Oh and of course I’d keep it that way, no change needed.
Infocom worked on a German version of his parser. And it’s not that difficult to create a proper parser. But looking at the quality of the Sierra parser: Yes, I’m happy too that these games are only in English.
Same here. I haven’t read the Mad magazine, but it was used in several other comic books.
I still don’t like the verbs, but I would agree with @Nor_Treblig: You don’t have to change it. The only concern I have are the other/new players who don’t understand the reason - especially if we look at the casual mobile players …
Even the English is wrong. No one would ever say “Open Door”, we would say “Open the Door”. Nor would we say “Give Chainsaw to Ray”, we’d say “Give Ray the Chainsaw” or “Give the Chainsaw to Ray”. Even the english is a cribbed hack. It’s not like we did it perfectly, then skimped on the translations. Maybe Americans are just more forgiving of their language being butchered in the pursuit of entertainment.
The problem with constructing sentences is it starts to get very complex if I can select “Give”, then “Ray” and then “Chainsaw”. It’s a lot easier if everything follows a pattern.
If this verb style interface had continued to be popular, maybe it would have advanced into a very natural and responsive sentence generator, moving verbs and nouns around to the correct place as you created sentences (without confusing the player in the process).
I can’t speak for all Germans, but we are similar. (You won’t believe what the kids are doing with the language, especially if a dialect is involved )
As I wrote above, it doesn’t matter, if the sentence line uses a wrong grammar: The player creates the sentence by clicking on different words. So it’s natural that they won’t fit (grammatically) together. Or in other words: They don’t have to fit together. We all grew up with Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island and we still don’t say “Razor, open door with yellow key” in real life. So as a developer you don’t have to strive for the grammatically perfect sentence line. More important are the other texts.
If you/someone is interested in developing such a system, feel free to contact me.