Curse and Maniac Mansion come to GOG! Sweet!

[Frenzie]

@Sushi

The example you gave how it is handled on a release of a modern game that afaik sold more digital downloads at release than physical DVD copies (too lazy to look it up), is not comparable to the year the original Tombraider was released, coincidentally also 1996. Back then, even downloading a patch of a few Mb to get the 3DFX working wasn’t a walk in the park (dial up connections, 3.5" disks holding 1.44Mb so you had to make filesplit archives)

Again, I’m merely saying what kind of UX Steam has in place that could be used for the purpose. In the terms of a few rather obvious facts that seem to be phrased as a counterargument (?!), it’s another disk (or ten) magically appearing out of thin air.

GOG occasionally makes multilingual releases out of monolingual games. But most of the time (like in the Legend of Kyrandia I just bought) they simply offer you the choice of which to download.

In GOG Galaxy you’re presented with a choice of language on first download. Then if you later switch the language, it often downloads just the language data. Age is not an issue, switching to French or German in the Legend of Kyrandia is a ~3.2 MB download as opposed to the full 84 MB. Which is exactly how I said it could and does work on Steam if someone bothers to implement it for the game in question.

Moreover, I said that there’s a lazier alternative that requires less effort: same UX, but simply download the full 84 MB (or in the case of CMI, the full 1+GB).

The main difference is that GOG cares, while Steam is more of a hard to use dumping ground. Although sometimes I find the dumping ground preferable because GOG might do something stupid like removing the DOS executable from a ScummVM game so you can’t play it on a real device or in an emulator like DOSBox should you wish to do so. I wish they never went through the effort of removing stuff that’s just sitting there not hurting anyone.

@Sushi

Flash forward 20 years. Let’s release CMI on GOG/Steam. The original developer that could implement an in-game language selection doesn’t exist any longer. So there’s only some legal rights owners left for the English and other versions. Once the rights are cleared, GOG/Steam minimizes their cost/maximize profit and provide them as completely separate installations. Just as they did for similar old games with localised voice acting like Putt-Putt.

Which means the lack of German CMI means either they couldn’t locate a copy (unlikely), either they don’t care for the extra market potential for Lucasarts P&C adventures in Germany (even less likely) or they weren’t able to clear the rights yet (for whatever reason).

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. This is a very different claim than that there would’ve been a new rerelease in the past ~16 years otherwise.[1] Past experience on GOG shows that new languages often have a way of showing up later, whether for reasons of technical difficulty, rights or difficulty of procurement.

tl;dr I agree with that.

[1] Assuming the German 2002 THQ LucasArts Adventure Pack was the last rerelease. Judging by this review it might’ve still been readily available in '09.

PS It looks like the last rerelease in the Netherlands might’ve been in '04.)

[Sushi]

I really don’t want to start a long discussion on this - oops too late! (But for fans of Space Quest who read on, there might be something of interest) - because:

• we don’t usually post the most structured nor well-researched arguments here.
• I personally couldn’t care less about playing CMI in German (or any other language for that matter)
• I have my mint condition copy of CMI. Bought it myself 21 years ago. Ironically with localised box and manual, so I’d only be interested in acquiring the English box today.

Anyway, apart from the UX * being practically identical given the fast and unlimited download volume and diskspace
in the steam launchers or installers, there is a big difference in UX if you can hotswap languages in the game. Just like in TWP! Even there, it is the text only which is swapped. Given the old SCUMM engine, language swapping was not something designed in from the start, and perhaps later evolutions of the SCUMM engine never did. Ron really took it as a requirement while making his ThimbleEngine, allowing future text translations by dumping a spreadsheet somewhere. Let’s see how the Italian fan voice-over is going to work, but it could very well be you will not be able to switch voice language within the game UI.

For legend of Kyrandia, the text/voice data files might have already been separate data files originally anyway? Then the effort is pretty low to only provide those as additional downloads. It even saves the digital distributor a bit of storage and bandwidth (applying the same philosophy throughout their entire catalogue).

Of course there will be exceptions. If a software engineer has to prep the compatibility for a certain game that is one of his old time favourites, who knows what fancy wrapper you’ll end up with? In-game menu hacking is less likely, again due to legal reasons. At the end of the day, lawyers and digital distributors are driven by greed and laziness (time is money). So that’s actually twice the same: $$$!

But gamers can also benefit from that laziness sometimes. For Space Quest series, Steam didn’t remove the original EGA version sources of Space Quest1 when they included the VGA remake. It took a bit of tinkering, but I now have both versions available, even via the provided launcher.

* I had to google that one. Unix didn’t really make any sense

[Someone]

@Sushi

For legend of Kyrandia, the text/voice data files might have already been separate data files originally anyway?

Yes. AFAIR the GOG versions of Kyrandia are using ScummVM. So it’s easy to provide the translations.

[Frenzie]

@Sushi

I personally couldn’t care less about playing CMI in German (or any other language for that matter)

These days I sometimes like to replay older games in French. It simultaneously allows me to practice the language and to experience a potentially fresh perspective on the game.

@Sushi

there is a big difference in UX if you can hotswap languages in the game.

Of course, it’s super convenient and awesome. I think it’s fairly self-evident that hot-swapping is exceedingly unlikely to be retroactively patched onto a game.

But if I was insufficiently clear, in many of these modern Steam games you cannot swap the language in-game. Like I said, i was talking about an in-Steam/in-Galaxy not in-game option, not unlike how many older games used to have a separate not in-game setting for such options. Tomb Raider isn’t nearly as elegant as Thimbleweed Park.

But I’d be extremely sad if someone held off on an available language simply because the ideal of an on-the-fly switch couldn’t be made available.

@Sushi

For legend of Kyrandia, the text/voice data files might have already been separate data files originally anyway? Then the effort is pretty low to only provide those as additional downloads. It even saves the digital distributor a bit of storage and bandwidth (applying the same philosophy throughout their entire catalogue).

I’d say that’s actually doubtful in this case. GOG Galaxy downloads are consistently bigger than the website download even if they subsequently offer the option of smaller secondary downloads. Case in point, website Legend of Kyrandia is 53 MB, while Galaxy Kyrandia is 84 MB. It only saves data after you install a second or third language, while presumably you’d generally just pick the one you want.

[Someone]

@Someone

I’ll try it with the original foil(s) and report (if I don’t forget it again…).

It’s working with the original foil but not very good. You have to guess most of the black words.

[Frenzie]

@Someone

It’s working with the original foil but not very good. You have to guess most of the black words.

I tried it in an image editor to much the same effect. It’s easy to filter out everything else but the red words but not vice versa.

[Sushi]

@Someone

@Sushi

For legend of Kyrandia, the text/voice data files might have already been separate data files originally anyway?

Yes. AFAIR the GOG versions of Kyrandia are using ScummVM. So it’s easy to provide the translations.

But scummVM isn’t SCUMM. It also includes support for other interpreters like Sierra’s SCI or Westwood’s whatever. ScummVM is just an easier way to get compatibility on new machines compared to DOSbox or messing with windows compatibility settings, even cross-platform.
<\nitpicking>

My point just being there may be other reasons that CMI is offered in English only. For now.

[Sushi]

@Someone

@Someone

I’ll try it with the original foil(s) and report (if I don’t forget it again…).

It’s working with the original foil but not very good. You have to guess most of the black words.

I tried on 2 different on-line scans with two cheap 3D glass cellophanes to filter out enough of the red. As long as the clear text was dark enough, it works pretty ok. If you look at an angle. But if the gray/blueish text is faint to start with, it’s a big mess.
Anyone who owns the actual paper hintbook to compare to?

[Frenzie]

Incidentally, this "not your ordinary walkthrough looks like it could potentially be interesting.

Maniac Mansion is making me feel slightly stupid atm 'cause I don’t really know what to do next. It’s definitely pre-Monkey Island. (Yes, I did a bunch of pixel hunting and found stuff like a loose panel.)

@Sushi

Westwood’s whatever.

ScummVM lists the engine’s name as Kyra.

[Someone]

@Sushi

As long as the clear text was dark enough, it works pretty ok. If you look at an angle.

Yes, same here with the original foil. (With original foil I mean the one that was part of the game(s).)

@Sushi

Anyone who owns the actual paper hintbook to compare to?

I don’t own the hintbooks but the “code sheets”. On these the red colour isn’t that “thick” as on the scanned hintbook.

@Frenzie

Maniac Mansion is making me feel slightly stupid atm 'cause I don’t really know what to do next.

Yes, that’s the same in Zak McKracken: Both are “Open World Adventures” which means that you have to explore a lot. I for myself liked that, but of course you feel at some state a little bit lost. You should think about what you can do, what you have to do and where you can’t go right now.

[Sushi]

Yeah, I had a quick look on UHS before, but they are different hints. At least more focused on what you have to solve. In comparison, the hintbook contains stuff like “what can I do with the grandfather clock?” Answer: enjoy its realistic soundeffects and write your appreciations in a letter to the game developer.
It seems there are much more jokes hidden under that red text.

But I agree that the mechanism of UHS would work better in electronic form than the red gel decoder.

[Frenzie]

@Someone

Yes, that’s the same in Zak McKracken: Both are “Open World Adventures” which means that you have to explore a lot. I for myself liked that, but of course you feel at some state a little bit lost. You should think about what you can do, what you have to do and where you can’t go right now.

It feels like I can go most places, although in some like the attic there doesn’t seem to be anything to do (yet). My guess is I should send something to the weirdo on TV (maybe green tentacle’s demo tape) which I’ll try after the requisite saves anyway. I have various keys but none seem to open much of anything yet. For now my hypothesis is that I’ll have to open the garage(?) before I can get to my obvious actual goal.

I’m surprisingly annoyed at missing some of the features from Thimbleweed Park, like click & hold to run somewhere. Also I seem to recall having keyboard control of the mouse in the likes of Monkey Island and/or Fate of Atlantis but there seems to be none of that either. Also the verbs are more annoying because I keep accidentally triggering switch kid. (I mostly use the keyboard qwert/asdf/zxcv control.)

Anyway, it doesn’t really feel more open than DOTT, MI or Thimbleweed Park — in fact I’m pretty sure there are far fewer possibilities. I guess I mostly just find it more tedious and less amusing to do the actual exploring. (In Monkey Island I was often trying to avoid actually solving the puzzle because that’s where the fun was. In Thimbleweed Park I browsed the library and the bookstore for hours. They crowdsourced some awesome content there.)

Also I’ve started to realize better that the game might be rather different with different characters. I’m not sure if any of mine can even fix anything like it would appear Bernard from DOTT can.

I do really like the feeling that there are actual people living in the house. In spite of being as old as I am, with a bunch of (oddly blue) characters walking around the game feels more dynamic than a great many more games I’ve played. You might say it’s closer to Dreamfall Chapters than Monkey Island, if that makes sense.

(Also, while I understood plenty of references in Thimbleweed Park, from the chainsaw to the clock to Edna, I still missed a ton of direct room references. Removing that sign in the library was just a fun joke to me, but it must’ve felt really great for some people.)

When I was younger I played pretty much all those games in no particular order,[1] but never Maniac Mansion, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, or Zak McKracken, all of which I now own on GOG. Why don’t they have that Labyrinth game yet, anyway? That and Grim Fandango will complete my list. I bought Grim Fandango Remastered when it came out, but for some reason it didn’t really grip to the point of playing more than a few minutes yet.

[1] MI3 was my first adventure game. In retrospect they made Elaine kind of lame but I still think it’s pretty neat.

[Someone]

@Frenzie

My guess is …

What you actually have to do depends on the kids you selected and their abilities. Which kids do you have?

Beside that: Your trains of thought aren’t bad.

@Frenzie

I’m surprisingly annoyed at missing some of the features from Thimbleweed Park, like click & hold to run somewhere.

Indeed: If you have played the later SCUMM games you instantly miss the additions features. But don’t forget that MM was the first SCUMM game.

@Frenzie

Also I’ve started to realize better that the game might be rather different with different characters.

Yes. In addition they lead to different endings.

@Frenzie

Why don’t they have that Labyrinth game yet, anyway?

Simple: It wasn’t available as a PC/DOS version and ScummVM doesn’t support it.

[BigRedButton]

@Someone

Simple: It wasn’t available as a PC/DOS version and ScummVM doesn’t support it.

Instead of ScummVM, they could use an emulator which would allow to play the best port of the game.

[Someone]

@BigRedButton

Instead of ScummVM, they could use an emulator which would allow to play the best port of the game.

Yes, but which one? Most emulators have a complex interface. So GOG has to pre-configure and support them. I doubt that this is profitable.

[BigRedButton]

I’m not an expert in this regard, but, if GOG really uses to do such jobs with ScummVM or DosBox, maybe modifying an additional emulator would pay, if the emulator would be used for other games as well, for example Winter Games and Summer Games.

Up to now, most of the old games on GOG were originally designed for PC (DOS and Windows 9x). I admit that this was an awesome era of video games, but, back in the 80s, there were popular games for other platforms as well, such as Marble Madness on the Amiga.

[Someone]

Maybe it’s a policy at GOG to only publish PC games.

[BigRedButton]

Well, maybe they are not interested enough yet, because there are still so many other famous PC games they don’t offer yet.
I guess, in the 90s, the games market was larger than it had been back in the 80s. So, there is a bigger potential for games from the 90s. Also, a lot of consumers joined the games market after the 80s and are therefore not very familiar with the hits from the 80s.

[Frenzie]

@Someone

What you actually have to do depends on the kids you selected and their abilities. Which kids do you have?

I went with Wendy & Razor. Wendy 'cause she’s a novelist and Razor because the band has a poster in Thimbleweed Park. Dave is pretty much just the jail opener in my game so far. Novelist + TV guy screams potential but the coin hasn’t dropped yet.

I also did a five-minute try-out play with Bernard ('cause DOTT) and Jeff (random) and noticed they can apparently fix things. And Jeff “feels stronger” after using the exercising equipment, lol. But that was just because I was stuck in my first choice game.

@Someone

Indeed: If you have played the later SCUMM games you instantly miss the additions features. But don’t forget that MM was the first SCUMM game.

Well yes, but since Maniac Mansion was originally meant to be controlled with a joystick (afaik) I was expecting keyboard cursor control. I find it nicer for pixel hunting.

@Someone

Yes. In addition they lead to different endings.

Interesting.

@Someone

Most emulators have a complex interface. So GOG has to pre-configure and support them. I doubt that this is profitable.

DOSBox isn’t exactly easy either with all the weird stuff you can stick in dosbox.conf but that doesn’t stop them from preconfiguring it pretty nicely. What confuses me is that half the ScummVM/DOSBox games don’t seem to come with Linux versions. And what annoys me is having to use innoextract on those Windows installers if I want to play the game on Linux.

On archive.org you can just play Apple II and Amiga stuff right in your browser, which adds a lot more complications than just bundling some data with a relevant emulator for Windows, Mac, and Linux:

https://archive.org/details/apple_ii_library_4am
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_amiga

Maybe it’s copy protection that’s more difficult to get around or something?

[Someone]

@Frenzie

Dave is pretty much just the jail opener in my game so far.

Sounds familiar

You should follow your ideas, you are on the right track.

@Frenzie

And Jeff “feels stronger” after using the exercising equipment, lol.

Only Jeff?