Do you play murder simulators? (Poll)

Off-topic
62

Sorry, I’ve just edited my last post, I wasn’t talking about murder/homicide, but first degree murder/murder in general

You know, maybe I should have been more clear from the start. Let me explain…

Oxford: "murder requires premeditation"
Common law: "second-degree murder is NOT premeditated"
Logic: “second-degree murder is not murder”

Me: "this logic doesn’t make sense. There must be an error somewhere. Probably in the Oxford Dictionary, since I’m quite sure that second degree murder doesn’t require premeditation.

63

I prefer the Colbert one:

(Anyway, “murder” is the legal term used in law to give a name to the crime. It’s quite possible that people have taken the legal term and have used it as a generic synonym for “intentional homicide”. Anyone who would like to read a lot on the subject may consult Wikipedia, that can shed a light on both the generic legal term (whose article, correctly, appears within the “Criminal justice portal” of the encyclopedia) and the other jurisdiction-specific definitions of “murder”: US, England and Wales, DE, IT)

1 Like
64

Ha, that would have been my second choice! But a classic is a classic and had I done that we wouldn´t be discussing Jacko´s Jackets right now.

65

Yes, the matter is quite interesting. I’ve read something.

But… are you implying that we should extend this topic from silly jackets to silly glasses?

66

Heck, why not?

67

I’m selling these fine leather glasses.

1 Like
68

Uhmmm… reading this topic makes me think we urgently need a new adventure game to keep us occupied…

2 Likes
69

Or… the dictionary is not concerned so much about legal terms, but with the lay language in common use.

You know, this is not computer programming or logic, it’s natural language.

70

Sure. And even in natural language, if you kill somebody with intention and without premeditation, You. Are. A. Murderer.

I think everybody will agree on that.
Don’t you?

71

How do you distinguish “intent” from “premeditation”? Or are you narrowly defining “premeditation” as merely planning it far in advance?

72

Premeditation can boil down to a matter of seconds. A person involved in an argument who then kills their adversary right then and there could be considered to have had intent, but not premeditation. On the other hand, a person involved in an argument who goes inside his house, chooses a weapon, and then comes right back outside to kill their adversary could be said to have intent and premeditation.

Edit: For everyone involved, in a shocking twist it turns out that the Oxford dictionary isn’t the only game in town. Here’s Merriam-Webster’s definition of murder, which is a closer match to public perception:

1 Like
73

Yes, I’m doing exactly that, just as described in the law and in the URL I quoted earlier:

First degree murder involves a premeditated killing. In other words, the killer made a plan to kill the victim and then carried that plan out. Second degree murder does not require premeditation, however. Instead, there are three typical situations that can constitute second degree murder:

A killing done impulsively without premeditation, but with malice aforethought
A killing that results from an act intended to cause serious bodily harm
A killing that results from an act that demonstrates the perpetrators depraved indifference to human life

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html

Anyway, back to us: it’s not matter for the Oxford of being “concerned about legal terms”.
It seems to me quite obvious that everybody, in natural language, would consider a killing without premeditation (being “premeditation” defined as above) as a MURDER.

You can obviously argue that it depends on the definition that the Oxford gives for premeditation, which could be different from the legal definition of the term, and mayb different from the public perception of the meaning of premeditation…

But, in that case, it would be my turn to roll my eyes… :smiling_imp:

Come, on… What do YOU think? Is killing somebody with malice but no planning a murder, or not?

If your answer is “NO”, well, I’d be surprised.

If your answer is “YES”, well, ladies and gentlemen, we do have an agreement.

And, if logic can be applied here, we both disagree with the Oxford Dictionary… :scream:

74

This definition is perfect. Nothing to object.

75

In a post of just 7 lines, you expressed my point exactly as I did, but it took to me a Great Wall of text. I’d love to have your conciseness. Thank you.

76

I would call it a homicide.

77

Troll!

:grinning:

78

No, really, I’m serious. I would call it “homicide” because “murder” is a term that is more ambiguous (its meaning changes depending on the jurisdiction or the culture of a country), while “homicide” is less ambiguous.

1 Like
79

Homicide is actually much more ambiguous, as not only does it cover premeditated and non-premeditated killing, it also covers accidental killing and legal killing. A person who kills children in their sleep and a person who kills two armed assailants to protect their family have both committed homicides, per legal and many common definitions. It’s why the term “justifiable homicide” exists.

80

And maybe the fact that in italian law murder is called “omicidio” helps to make things more confuse… :slight_smile:

But I find it really interesting the comparison between the various kind of omicidio/murder, which partially overlap:

Omicidio volontario (intention, with OR without premeditation)
omicidio colposo (no intention)
omicidio preterintenzionale (intention to harm, not to kill)

So in our law the INTENTION is the cardinal point that makes the crime more serious.

In the US it is different:

First degree murder (intention AND premeditation)
Second degree murder (intention AND no premeditation, OR intention to harm but not to kill)
Manslaughter (no intention)

So in the US PREMEDITATION is the cardinal point that makes the crime more serious.

Maybe that’s why who is accustomed to US legal system usually thinks to premeditated homicide as the “king of murders”, while for countries based on roman law there’s no such strong difference.

Anyway, these are subtle nuances, since obviously also in Italy premeditation makes the crime more serious…

The only given fact is that the only crime which is NOT murder here is manslaughter, which is defined by the absence of INTENTION. The only absence of premeditation still configures a murder.

81

Dictionary cagefight, then?

My natural instinct, which is closly linked to my mothertongue tells me that “murder” just feels more right to me because it´s really close to the german word “Mord” which is the only word used for these things, there is no murder/homicide distinction in german.