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WARNING: dangerous topic (politics!)


#141

Yes, german situation with Seehofer’s requests is another important piece of this chess game widely covered by press these days.
I could even think that now it’s a time to reduce immigration pressure over Europe, to try help people in their countries, and to examinate and distinguish between economic immigrants and war refugees. But this is a plan that requires a great vision, it’s a european Marshall plan for Africa and Syria, it requires that anyway every country takes its commitment to accept anyway a residual share of people coming here.
But I don’t see anything of that now. I just see the governments of every european country trying to pass the buck to others.


#142

Yeah because most of the countries with right wing governments would prefer not to take ANY refugees. The solution Merkel is trying to push (as opposed to Seehofer, who prefers to go on his own) is talking to all the other countries and find a solution where the people are spread out more evenly than they are now, as you suggest. Unfortunatly I don´t see that happening either in the current situation. Not when everybody just put the fingers in their ears.


#143

A more equal distribution of wealth around the globe would definitely go a long way, but I don’t think that this is possible in the current economic environment. There’s simply too much emphasis on individual growth and too little focus on the greater good. As long as making money on the cost of everyone else is seen as the way things are supposed to work, this is not going to change.

In general, the whole political debate about immigration basically leaves me speechless. The inhumanity on display is something that should get politicians thrown out of office, no questions asked.


#144

Three people responsible for Brexit negotiations have resigned in the past 24 hours. What the beeeeeeeep?! :angry:

In my view, the government has been doing a rubbish job at negotiating a deal recently. It’s ridiculous. So ridiculous that the EU refers to our negotiating attempts as “cake”. Businesses have already started relocating jobs from the UK, because the prospect of a “no-deal Brexit” has become so likely.

And now, the key decision-makers for the outcome of Brexit are removing themselves from the process, instead of taking responsibility for all this and making sure we get the best possible outcome!

The future of Britain hangs in the balance. The result of negotiations will, for instance, decide whether we pay £245 more in bills per year, or £1,961. I’m scared. :disappointed_relieved:


#145

I´d laugh and say “now they get what they voted for” because this was pretty much obvious anybody who observed this from the beginning. But all the sensible “remain” voters get punished, too! :frowning:


#146

Yeah, and I’m one of them :disappointed:


#147

Wouldn’t it be the best to make another referendum?


#148

Sure! As far as I understand it still isn´t too late entirely there are even movemements to get one going I believe.

But wih everyone responsible being able to back out at this point, this looks like a giant mess as it is.


#149

On one hand: yes, because both sides made unfulfilled promises during their campaigns (especially Leave though), and the public didn’t really know what they were getting themselves into.

On the other hand: if we had a second referendum for this, then people might demand second referendums for everything in the future. And then nothing would ever get done.


#150

That fell through, unfortunately.


#151

Oh yes, the good ole fear of the creating a precedent! Has also kept overdue changes in the US government from happening for decades.

While not completly unfounded, unfortunatly that mentality also would lead to nothing getting ever done let alone reconsidered.


#152

Are you sure about that?


#153

Yeah, like I said above. :point_up:


#154

Hmm… well, overturning a decision from 1791 (like, say, the right to bear arms of the Second Amendment) would have different implications to overturning one from a year ago. In the latter case, nearly all of the people who voted are still around. Telling them to vote again is saying to each of them “your first vote didn’t count”.

Could that diminish the perceived value of a first vote? Could second referendums come to be applied in almost any case, completely reversing the progress - both bad AND good progress - made in between the two voting periods? Who knows. But I can imagine Leavers getting really angry over the first result being declared void, if the result of a second referendum was Remain.


#155

Yeah, sure. But that is bound to happen.

It happens in other fields of democracy, too. There are re-elections in case of unclear outcome or if a goverment fails to work together. You can use all those arguments for that as well. But it happens regulary in democracies all over the world. And I fail to see how this is different.

If a thing doesn´t work out doesn´t mean you have to stick to it only because its advocates wouldn´t like it.


#156

What I’m concerned about is people claiming “our rights as voters are under attack”, and the implications that might have if this idea was taken seriously by those in power.

But if second referendums and such have been successful elsewhere, then maybe this isn’t likely to happen.


#157

Well at least I´m sure it´s not bound to happen.

In any case, it would be preferable to get out of the current situation as well as the direction the country is going.

The whole anti europan movements as well as the general tendecy to drift apart further and further lately really worries me. If things go on like that, with the pressure of migration making every single country go their own ways lhe long time peace we now have managed to maintain for over 80 years on the continent and nearby islands is in serious danger.


#158

Well, it was a pretty close call anyway. I am not sure on the legal status of a referendum in UK, but in a lot of countries, the outcome of a referendum is only “advisory” and not binding.
That being said, I think any referendum should have a lower threshold to be not considered undecided.

Three of the pro-leave leaving themselves now… how ironic (and irresponsible). That’s why I hate (most) politicians, because they only care about getting votes/popularity but bail out of the actual work to be done once they’re in the kitchen.


#159

That is my fear as well. Plus, a Europe that isn’t united will not stand a chance when it comes to competing economically. But together, we’re a market of some 500.000.000 people. Definitely a force to be reckoned with.


#160

I think that in democracy politicians work well, if there’s a base of people who care about politics as handling of common things. The lack of interest, participation and sense of common wealth of people brings to politicians which are more egoist and centered on popularity more than effective results of their politics. They are often the mirror of society. Democracy can’t exist without a proper educated demos (people). That said, we live in a period of history of the western world (but I could say the whole globalized world) where two new classes are rising: the rich ones which have the financial power, and are invisible, and the impoverished middle class, which has not the capability to face the other class which is well hidden behind the financial infrastructure. In this new world, it is difficult to let the people find their way and recognize where to choose and direct their action. If you take Europe for example, that’s a mixture between financial policies that are for the financial class, and other policies like directives which are good and beneficial for everyone. Then people of the UK is not absolutely wrong, while EU is not absolutely right. What we call “populism” is from the base the suffering of people which have not the instruments (cultural and/or practical) to face the trasformation of the world in a way that exclude them from the rights people in the nation-states have fought to acquire in the past centuries. I would never blame UK people, I deeply understand them, even if I would have never voted for Brexit, but I would have fought as hell to change this Europe.